the apochtolipoch, I can't do that.
Poch-aliptical, apoch-aliptical, apoch-aliptical. Let's try again.
All right, hi and welcome back to Maple History. I'm Christina Austin and today I have my husband as my guest again.
Are you getting him?
Simon, he's here. Today will be a short little episode that's real purpose is to pave the way
for the beginning of New France, Champlain, the fur trade, and the apochtoliptical diseases that will wipe out like 30, 50% of the wind-up people and so on.
So, I'm going to be talking about the morning wars and what they are because it's going to be important when we're talking about the way warfare changes between the indigenous people as a result of the Europeans coming.
Okay.
I'm speaking mostly about the wind-up people for the most part because that's what I've read about mostly.
A little bit about the Haudenosaunee because they were the main adversaries of the wind-up.
All right.
But since we're going to be talking about the morning wars, it's a big growth.
Okay, because it's-
Torture is an important part of the morning wars.
Yeah, and it's morning not like, you know, morning evening. It's like morning.
As in grieving.
So to provide a little bit of balance just because when we're talking about indigenous people and kind of the intimacy of the brutality of warfare,
I think we really need to talk about the scale of the brutality in European warfare and how enormous it is.
So you have a shocking amount of intimacy and really creative tortures.
In like the indigenous people?
For indigenous people.
And it's like a family event.
I know public tortures were-
Family events, entertainment.
Yeah, but it wasn't up close and personal.
It wasn't like in your living room.
Yeah, and it will.
Family events like they were entertainment in Europe.
Yeah, because they were a cautionary.
Sorry, like people would take their kids to a hanging and then go be the shit out of them.
Yeah, so they'd remember it.
Yeah.
Listen, some days my parenting feels a little off, but I ain't that.
That.
Anyways, so I want to zoom out and give a general picture of what we would view as extreme violence in Europe and how it's really about to kick off over there with the wars related to the Reformation.
So there's going to be horrific massacres, tortures,
a super high casualty, wars happening all across Europe.
Kind of at the same time.
I'm talking about the 15th century, 16th century.
Oh wait, is this time of Spanish Inquisition too?
I guess it's kind of about the same.
Yeah, well that's also famously ruthless.
That's more of a Monty Python kind of.
Oh, okay.
That's my Python history.
No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.
Yeah.
Yeah.
No, we're talking about, so we'll be talking about like the, just like not really talking about like the details of the world, but just kind of give a sense of what was happening over there.
And how it really did affect the day to day lives of regular people.
It wasn't just short little wars of conquest where it's like,
like these are devastating wars.
Okay.
Heartly related to ideology.
Okay, the morning wars.
When Jessica was over and we were talking about the Wendat.
And we did like a huge hour plus long chat and we talked about warfare.
You know, you're talking smashing people and arrows and blades.
Everyone was very connected and the family was very connected.
And the reason that they had the morning wars is because yes, vengeance is part of it.
That is part of why, like if someone kills someone from your family, you're going to go and kill in this sense of rebalancing.
Hostages could be adopted into the family.
Like women and children could be adopted into the family.
Yeah.
And the men could be adopted, but they kind of often were tortured into adoption.
Well, I was thinking about that.
It's much easier for me to imagine a child being like these young parents and they raised you and cared for you and all that stuff.
Like so I could see that that becomes easy to grasp.
But I think if you were a fully grown adult and you were previously fighting.
And you had a wife and you had a wife in your other tribe and all that sort of stuff like you had a family of your own.
The only way to get into that new group would be to be broken down.
Like broken by torture and psychological things.
So I didn't have this book when I talked to Jessica and this would have been a great book to have.
It's called Here on When Dad the Heritage of the Circle by George Sui, S-I-O-U-I.
So I hope I say that right.
He talks about how they are a circular society and whereas we, white settlers,
would be like a linear society.
And that also includes the passage of time.
Everything is a circle.
You're going to see them again.
Yeah.
They're going to come back.
So like when a baby dies.
Yeah.
They're buried on a pathway.
So that when a woman walks by.
The spirit can come back.
This is a very short little summary of and I'm going to quote here from the Heritage of the Circle here.
When Dad's most fundamental sacred ideas which are common to circle societies in general.
So when Dad's are one of them.
So I always assume Honoshone would also be one of them and maybe the Elgonquin and in a jibway.
But probably not all.
No.
I'm sure when I get to the West Coast things are going to be different.
But I don't know about that yet.
I'm in books.
So we have seen that the Wendats understood the need for the presence of evil in the universe.
For them the world is neither good nor bad nor should it be.
They see the world in equilibrium.
And as such it becomes an object of admiration and veneration.
Life functions in cycles.
Time itself is circular and therefore has no real existence.
No one feels the need to progress or evolve.
Another basic notion in Wendat thought was that other entities are peoples as are humans.
So animal and vegetable kingdom, stones, mountain spirits are made of the same substance that we are.
They are family and friends who support and succorus.
And they have the right to our respect and consideration.
So that's a very brief summary of the idea of the circle societies.
It's hard to wrap your head around non-linear time thinking.
Because we think of moving forward, we age, we die.
So yeah, the morning wars, there'd be a lot of consideration about how and why you'd go
into battle for the morning wars.
My understanding, if I'm maybe misreading this, so your neighbor village,
like a murder could happen, right?
Like people are always people.
Or like a neighboring nation, like a gongquin or one or the other kind of more northern ones
that are not farmers, like the Wendat.
They're friends, but you know, people fight.
So if something happens and someone gets killed, you would have to pay presents.
You'd have to give gifts.
Or you're gonna fight.
Gotcha.
Which, so, or peace, it's better to do the presents.
Because present gift giving came very easy to the Wendat people.
I feel like this is the same thing in other, like many of their cultures, right?
Like I remember hearing about-
Of course.
I'm just like freaking quote of-
It's the quote of homorrhythals.
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
It's old school.
Yeah, it's old school.
Yeah, they codified it.
A son is worth like, ex-dollars or, you know, like cows or whatever it was.
But if it's an enemy, you know, when it's the Haudenosaunee,
so if they're say battle the Seneca, they're never pitched battles per se.
Like they would attack a palisaded village.
They would attack an unpalisaded village and that's gonna be bad.
But, you know, you're talking mags a couple hundred people getting killed, plus hostages.
It's not about eliminating as many people as possible.
It's about how many warriors you can capture.
Yeah.
Because they're going to replace or assuage the grief by torture.
Of the family that has lost their son or husband or just family member.
And maybe it'll be like a little bit tortured and then they get adopted.
Or they just get tortured and then they get told, well, you know what,
certain tomorrow night, it's going to get bad.
And then they prepare themselves.
They are ready.
Like they have been ready.
Like they have all captured warriors would sing their war song all the way.
Walking, they would sing the whole way.
Even after they've had their fingers bitten off or something like that.
It's shocking to us.
It's even if you were...
It's even shocking to think that you wouldn't just be super motivated to fight to the death.
Yes.
That you would never want to be taken alive.
That it is shocking to me.
Like to compare...
Let's go wars of the roses, right?
So you're talking Edward IV when he defeated
Henry VI.
The Battle of Touton in 1461 was the deadliest on British soil.
Okay.
The estimates are between 30 and 50,000 dead.
That's a lot of people.
10 hours of fighting.
And like these are...
This isn't, you know...
We wouldn't even have cannons, would they?
There's arrows and...
Swords.
Swords.
Pikes.
Yeah.
Bludgeoning things.
Yep.
Little...
Beat the brains out of you.
Yeah.
Yeah.
For 10 hours.
That's a lot of Englishmen dead.
30,000 just like up close and personal.
Yes.
So that is like they're trying to kill as many people as possible.
That's the contrast that I want to like highlight.
What is shocking to us is that women and children in a village,
or women and children, you know, who live near a monastery or something like that,
and just, you know, farmed.
You would see a criminal or a heretic or something like that get killed,
but you're not doing it.
But whereas this is the torture happened in the long house with the children.
Yeah, right there.
And that is what is like, oh, oh, I don't...
I don't love that.
But then I think there's 30 to 50,000 people dead in one day.
Right? So it's like, it's like, oh, you're like, oh, you think people get really
defensive and be like, oh, well, that's so uncivilized.
And I'm like, well, is that civilized?
Like the 50,000 dead civilized?
I don't know.
I don't think so.
It's hard to imagine the whole time.
Everything smells bad.
It's just...
There's disease everywhere.
The scale of the poverty and the scale of the like how cheap life is just across the board.
But not...
Well, the life is not cheap though in Wendyck community.
It's not cheap.
They are very purposeful and that is a big difference.
So it's good because it's not cheap.
They will adopt a person.
They wanted more people.
One interesting thing when I was reading in this one,
when he was talking about the St. Lawrence Iroquois is that some of the reasons for battle,
for fighting was who gets the St. Lawrence Iroquois to bulk out their community numbers.
They wanted them.
Yeah, yeah.
Because they were...
They're being dispersed, but they're like, I want you dispersed over here.
They're like, no, we want them.
These are our family.
So one other little thing that I noticed,
I had read it in the Dispers but not destroyed book by Catherine McGillabelle,
but I didn't quite understand the word.
So I had talked about the Iroquoian people.
So that was a term that Bruce Trigger and William Fenton used to describe the people
because it's the Iroquoian language and that's what the scholars have grouped these nations as.
Like the Haudenosaunee, the Wendat, and I think the neutral...
and her other.
Anyways, but Sui, he doesn't use that term.
He uses the term Nadawak.
Okay.
And I'm like, oh, of course.
Of course they would have a term for the types of people.
So they're the Nadawak people.
So the Huron, the Wendat, or Nadawak people, the Haudenosaunee are Nadawak people.
Well, it also makes perfect sense because Iroquoian generally means snake, right?
Yeah, so they wouldn't call themselves.
We speak the snake language.
Like I'm saying, like, you know, in the Mi'gma, they had names for people.
But one of them, it's not the real name because the Mi'gma,
they're word for basically funny talkers.
Like the reason we have the word barbarian,
is because Greeks, when they hear someone speaking not Greek,
they're like, barbarbar.
So it's barbarian.
So it's like blah, blah, blah.
It's like a racist thing.
Oh, that's amazing.
Well, I mean...
Barbarbar.
So they kind of do the same things.
They're like these guys and they name them.
So anyways...
It's like Joey Tribbiani and friends speaking French.
So anyway, so that's...
So that is something that I've picked up.
I'm like, okay, the Nadawak people.
They're not the Iroquoian people.
I'm going to try and remember to adopt that word.
The other thing was that we really have to have an understanding of
the depths of their beliefs.
Europeans and Indigenous people about how when you're reading stuff,
when you're listening to something, you're like, I don't know about that.
I don't know.
Like, do they really believe?
Like, I think they really do in order for this to endure the torture
of like horrific stuff with incredible stoicism,
but also to do the brutality of the warfare,
you know, the healing of children and women.
And they would torture women and I don't know if they torture children,
but I hope not.
I'm going to think...
No, because I don't want to think about that.
Even older people.
Whereas we think, oh wow, yeah, women and children and the elderly,
they're kind of in the sacred space.
But were they in Europe?
No, they weren't.
No.
When they went raiding into towns and we're talking,
I'm speaking specifically, like if you're thinking like ancient,
whatever, like that's, oh yeah, okay then.
And we're talking about like the...
The same time.
Our understanding of Christianity and...
Yeah, the same time period that this was happening in North America,
say like similar stuff was happening.
Yeah, like a reading of words.
Yeah, because some people get really defensive about like,
oh well, the Europeans were more civilized.
I'm like, oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
I mean, is it...
Our art was a little bit more elaborate and like writing and I'm like,
Honestly, I would say, yeah, that's civilized.
Yeah.
But we do contrast it with horrors beyond our imaginations.
And it really gets bad with the Reformation that's coming.
When that happens, the wars of religion that are coming
are going to be appalling.
So the Reformation really kicks off in 1517 with Martin Luther's 95 theses.
Yeah.
That's kind of our, that's kind of our little starting point.
And then the slow burn of that starting and yeah, you know,
the torture of people that was happening.
Then you have the French Wars of religion that last about 30 years.
Included in that is Saint Bartholomew's Day Massacre.
Margaret of Valois and Henry of Navarre.
Henry of Navarre was a Protestant and she wanted to marry her daughter to him.
And then shit got real bad and a whole bunch of people got massacred over a couple of months
all across France.
But really like we're talking thousands of people in Paris like that day, murdered
brutally by their friends or neighbors.
And then it rippled across and we're looking at 20,000 people killed.
Like these are like these are soldiers.
Yeah.
That's wild.
So they're murdered by their friends.
How do you even coordinate that back then?
Yelling.
I'm not kidding this one.
So one of the noble men got murdered.
They're thrown out the window and then they started yelling and they're like the king commands it.
The king commands it.
So then people are like, oh the king commands us to start killing Protestants Huguenots is what
they call them.
And then they started and it just popped off.
And they just oh wow okay.
Yeah.
For like a month or two.
Wow.
Super bad.
They could either convert on site or be murdered.
In the streets or in the houses.
In the streets.
They chained a bunch together and threw them in the river like in the sand.
It was super bad.
Like as bad as you can imagine.
Chained them to be like very planned.
Like this is.
Oh no they yeah they did.
It was yeah.
There was an episode of not just the tutors which is Susanna Lipsken's
podcast on part of history hit network.
And she had someone come talk about the same patholi news they massacred.
And it was so gross.
Yeah.
It was so gross.
So anyways if you look at it and you're like oh let's see how gross it can be.
Well look that one up.
Yeah so then you have not long after French wars of religion things pop off in Germany and
Greg and you have the 30 years war.
Wait just before this there was like a 20 years war.
Well that was yeah that was just in France.
Okay the French 20 years were in this.
Yeah this one is more international.
Okay.
And it kicked off in 1618.
So a Catholic king was replaced by a Protestant king.
It started when the catholic side sent some ambassadors to Prague.
And then you had a thing and it was the defenestration of Prague.
Oh geez.
And there's the third one apparently.
It's like the third defenestration of Prague.
Yeah there was other ones in different hundreds of years.
They like to defenestrate people.
So anyway 1618.
Defenestration of Prague.
And put that down into your bar trivia.
Lock it in.
Third.
Was it the first second or third?
It was the third.
Defenestration is the skinning.
Chuck it out of a window.
Oh yeah you're right.
Oh what am I thinking of?
Superb- no no they just checked.
They lived though.
They survived.
People lived.
Getting checked out of windows.
Yeah they the people.
These guys that got checked out the window survived.
Okay yeah.
So but anyways.
Well not all of them I'm sure.
No these two.
It was just two people got chucked out of a window.
Oh okay.
Well you said defenestration of Prague and I assumed it was like a lot.
All the people at Prague.
No no it was like in Prague.
Okay.
And they got two ambassadors got chucked out the window.
And that kicked off the 30 years war.
Oh okay.
I had it totally wrong.
I was thinking that like it was a part of the war
and there were just chucking people out of the window all over the place.
No.
Prague.
Or actually I had it even worse.
For some reason in my head I had defenestration meant like skinning.
Which was like I was like oh my god that's really gross.
No they didn't do that.
Oh they probably I don't know if they did that and whatever.
But what did happen is 4.5 to 8 million people died.
Wow.
During this war.
Mostly in Germany.
Was it active?
Maybe you don't know the show.
No it was soldiers and civilians.
And was it also famine?
Yes.
So starvation and murder of people and soldiers death.
So it was all of it.
Like any big war like famines just are a part of it.
That is the world that Europeans are coming from.
And then they're shocked at some torture.
Actually yeah there wouldn't be any like there wouldn't be much famine involved at this scale.
Not at this scale.
I mean there would be starvation deaths.
You know every winter there would be starvation deaths.
Like yes the young and the old will likely die.
But like it wouldn't be a famine.
Because it would be just leanness.
Yeah okay so those are the two worlds that are coming.
I actually didn't talk much about the torture.
Which I think is good because we covered some of that.
And actually shit's going to really pop off with a Champlain stuff because he wrote about it a lot.
And also the the recolat priests and obviously the Jesuit priests they really
get some detail in there.
So it's kind of you're getting the first person accounts.
We'll talk about the shocking sexual practices.
I didn't even think I was being particularly prudish.
I was just like wow that's a lot.
It's some kinky ass shit.
Oh okay.
I don't I don't I don't like that.
I don't like that.
But yeah so we're talking about two very different ways of thinking.
But also both have profound levels of violence.
But also profess to be peace loving.
Both yeah.
They both do.
You know Christians whether you're Catholic or Protestant you are
a follower of the Prince of Peace and you are for peace and then you do tens of thousands of people
murdered.
And the same thing they're like they want the peace.
They want but then to satisfy their theological feeling thought of replacing this person.
Asuaging this grief.
Reintegrating that person's soul into your family.
By renaming them or taking a child and giving them a name and then that was that's a lot of
violence that had to get that doesn't sound like peace.
Yeah it gets they're all the same but different.
Indigenous people are shocked at the idea that you would let people starve to death in the street
when you had plenty of food.
That is shocking but it's also shocking to have your teenage children participate in
the torture of hostage.
Yeah.
I don't agree with that.
Yes.
You're coming down against torture.
I am but I also really don't think that you should beat your Protestant neighbor to death
on the streets of Paris.
So you know what everybody says.
Yeah.
So anyways that was I bet all I think I can cover today.
Next up we'll go into Champlain.
That's what I'll do next.
It's a big topic.
It's huge.
Looking forward to it.
Yeah and I'm really looking forward to talking about the Mi'gma, the Acadia part.
Like there was basically two colonies.
But I think that's going to be really interesting to see the differences
because you get a understanding of the differences of the Indigenous cultures as well.
And how that can shape how that kind of shaped the settler Indigenous relationship.
I don't know much about the Acadians like a little footnote stuff.
Yeah because we were taught in English school I think and I think in New Brunswick they have a
Probably.
In Quebec.
Okay so thank you and like, subscribe, all that good stuff.
I'm going to start doing some more TikTok stuff if you want to follow me.
My TikTok is maple history.
Oh and we're going to start putting these on YouTube.
Which is apparently a huge missed opportunity that we've just not done yet.
All right thank you.
