Jesuits In Quebec But Not To Make Friends

(upbeat music) - Hi and welcome back to Mable History. I'm Christina Austin and Simon is here again to talk about the early days of the missionaries in New France. - Nice. - Vanessa was gonna come over but they're on baby watch for a new nephew. We're very much looking forward to meeting him. - Yeah, very, very exciting. - Vanessa's not the one having the baby. It's her brother's wife. Okay, so if you'd like to support the show, consider joining the Patreon at Patreon.com/MappleHistory or you can follow me on TikTok at Mable History or Instagram at Mable HistoryPod. So this episode won't be covering a really long period of time. I feel like it's kind of a setup episode for some really deep dark episodes on the Jesuits and how they affected the Wendat nations and also just in the midst of all the colonization that focused on the area around Quebec as well 'cause the Wendat nations were not New York, Quebec. They were like Simco County, Midland Penitang. If you're an Ontario person, you know where that is. - Yeah, I'm really interested in this one 'cause that was like my backyard. - That's home and for Barry too, is that from Barry? So like we said, it's probably fair to say that most people associate the missionaries in Quebec or New France, especially the early days would be the Jesuits. - Yeah. - But it was actually the Recollette. They're a different organization. They were the ones who got the ball rolling. It's all about the politics which religious organization can ingratiate themselves in with the right kind of people to get sent over. - And how were the Recollette different? - So they were Franciscan. They all take vows of poverty and things like that, but they were very austere. Whereas the Jesuits were, remember the joke on Austin Powers where the lady is the militant arm of the Salvation Army? - Yes. - Okay. (laughing) So the Jesuits are kind of, they're not militant, they're not fighters, but they are in a war against the Reformation. - Okay, and the Recollette were not. They grew out of a much older organization whereas the Jesuits were founded in like 1540. So right smack at the start of Reformation. - Basically in response, sounds like to the Reformation. So what they were doing was one of the main aspects is that they were educators. And so they were educators of the nobility or the upper class, the princes to educate them to be devout Catholics. - Yeah, and the Reformation is the Protestant Revolution or like it was actually happened after? - No, that's all. - It's all together. - Reformation is Protestants. So, and the Protestants were very good at spreading the word through education because part of Protestantism is the direct relationship you have with the Bible and you need to be able to read to do that. So that's an aspect of it. So education became very important to the Jesuits. - Okay. - And educating the right kind of people. You want the princes of the land. - Yes. - But they themselves need to be very well educated and they're still known for being good educators. - Yeah. - Like I'm saying that in like legitimate like, oh, a good thing. Like it's good to be a good teacher. - So that was one of the things Vanessa was saying about how a lot of the schools that she has been associated with and her parents were associated with. - Yeah. - They were Jesuit schools. Like still to this day. - Yeah, but back in the early days, they weren't setting up urchin schools for like little impoverished children. They were educating upper middle class sons of merchants, princes, dukes, whatever. But the Rekalet, they were much smaller. I wouldn't say they're more chill. They're not quite as aggressive. - Okay. - With their mission. Their mission is a little more old school in it's evangelizing and things like that. So they came over in 1615. Champlain brought four priests over. Fathers, Dennis Jame, Jean Delbeau, Joseph Le Caron and the fabulously named Pecifique Duplessie. - Oh, okay. - And it's a good one. It's so French. - Yes. - Anyways, but we don't ever hear much about him, unfortunately. So Le Caron went to live with the Wendat Bear Nation that summer, like when he came over with Champlain. That's when Champlain got his leg busted up. And the other ones stayed back in Quebec 'cause they set up a mission, they built a house and whatever 'cause they needed to live apart from the enemies, whatever. So of course their mission was to save the souls of the indigenous people, but Le Caron and the other Rekalet also wanted to have control of the cultural influence any French people had over the indigenous people in New France. So that meant, so the people who had influence were the traders. - Oh, dang, for a second. - Trade with a D, not traders. - Yes, yes. - Or the merchants. - Yes, the merchants. That's a good way. - The early versions of the Curro Dubois, the interpreters. So Le Caron was fine with the decent sort of Christians, like Champlain, I'm talking upper class, wealthier people, but he was horrified by how the interpreters, they're sometimes called Truchmal. Interpreters isn't a great translation. Truchmal, it's like a type of ambassador liaison 'cause they're not really ambassadors 'cause that's kind of high up. They were the go-between, like it's just, it's a clumsy way to say what they were, but do you get what I mean? 'Cause they lived with them, right? And they spoke the language. They were embedded. - He's your man on the inside. - Yeah, so these were Etienne Brule, that's the most famous one, and Nicola Marcelet, Etienne Brule lived with the Wendat and Marcelet lived with the Inu, sometimes in books you'd read, the Montagnier. And actually, the Montagnier is kind of a good way for you to think about it. Their Montagnier would be closer to the Laurentians. They're an algonquin people. - That makes sense. They're the Laurentian mountains. - Yeah, and around that whole region, which is huge, it's helpful for people to place it mentally. - It helps me. - So they lived them full time and could speak the language and fully participated in life there. And what I mean, fully participated. They were all in on the liberated sexual customs, the Wendat and all the indigenous people. So, Rekalette didn't like that. - Oh, yeah, of course. - Yeah, they were uptight. - I imagine the Jesuit and the Rekal-- - Jesuits were way worse even. I don't know if you can get worse, but like, oh my God, just wait later when we talk about Jean de Brebuf. I can't even handle him. I kind of love him 'cause I really believe that he fully believed everything. This is not a performance. He was all in. So the Rekalette accused the traders, interpreters of subverting the Christian moral teachings that the French were supposed to be bringing to the people of Canada. That was the important mission of the Rekalette. They did not care. - They didn't care about trade or anything like that. - Not really. They did in a way that it will support their mission and the wealth of the nation will help this bread of Christianity. - Yeah. - The wealth of France can do that. They were not disloyal to France or anything like that, but their mission was clear. - We already talked about this, but I imagine a huge part of why the liberated sexual practices and all that sort of stuff was seemingly okay was that really it's community babies. And like you were saying before, how it's like were they cousins, were they brothers, was it like was it really his father, was it really a father and son? Like it doesn't really matter. - They knew who they were. So they would not have like Wendat people or any people would not have a sexual relationship with someone who was close to them. That's why the clan system was really important in the Wendat because you would not have a sexual relation with someone within your clan. You knew who everybody was. It wasn't like you're not gonna be like, oh my God, I actually had sex with my cousin. - No, you knew that they were in your clan and you will not cross that line. It doesn't get gross in like a genetic kind of way. They were fine and they would just look after each other. It's, you know, 'cause they were made, like the babies lived with the mother. And even with the MiGma people, they were pretty liberated too. They had a little bit different system 'cause they were separate. If the husband, the potential husband would go and live with the family for a year and prove that they could support this family and be part of it. And they would have to abstain from sex for that year to prove themselves, which is, I don't know, is really like a respectful and kind of loving way to bring someone into the family. - And for them, it's a bit of a test. Like what is it? - It's absolutely a test, but you live with them. You get to know them. You learn to love them as a family member, right? 'Cause you're living, you're close. You're getting to know her uncle or like her father, her brothers, her little brothers, her nieces and nephews, right? You become fully integrated and fully loved by this family. - Mm-hmm. - Anyways, that's just a side. Okay, so the Reclet set up their mission in Quebec, and they really wanted the Inu. They were the ones who frequented Quebec often, the Quebec settlement, specifically, 'cause they're the ones that were close, right? So the Wendat were weeks away. - Yeah, yeah, Simco County, for like Quebec City, like massive difference. - Yeah, that's frickin' far. Totally worth the drive though, anyways. - Yeah, fantastic. - But they wanted to have them become more sedentary. It's almost like they can't catch them, right? Like, want them become farmers. - Yeah. - 'Cause how can you get them, if they're not like you? They did not understand how they lived, so they couldn't get ahold of them. And they wanted to be more sedentary, like the Wendat. Like, look how Ron had already been over to the Wendat, and say, "Oh, yeah, these are farmers." We can work with farmers. - Yes. - So they believe that the best way that they could become Christians, and therefore civilized, is by having them become sedentary, like farmers. - Mm-hmm. - This is the Inu. - Yeah. - The Montagnier, Algonquin. There are Anishinaabe. This is a term we would use now, which is a very broad term, when it gets confusing about who is Anishinaabe. I am not an expert on that at all. - Wouldn't the actual land itself in the location that they were living have a big influence on whether they became farmers, or primarily hunters? - Yes, but Quebec is a very fertile land. - That's true. I don't know enough about farming. I don't really don't know very much. It also goes back to when we were talking about way back, when we were talking about how it's the Iroquoian people. George Sue, we would call them Nadooc people. - Okay. - The Iroquoian people, or Nadooc, are the ones who adopted corn. - Yeah. - And things like that. Corn, squash, et cetera, the sisters, because of how it came up through the river system from ancient times, essentially. - From South America. - Yeah, and it's all about kinship networks, and how they develop, but then the Inu, they're a much smaller number of people. But they didn't need that, because they had a relationship with the Wendat people, and the Wendat people grew an excess of corn and other things, so that the Inu and Algonquin would go and get the furs and do all those things, and then they'd come together, and then they would trade, and they'd have this symbiotic relationship, where the Wendat got what they wanted, they wanted the furs, and why not from way up North, from the people who lived and had that relationship with the land up there, and then the Inu people got what they needed from the people who were creating the excess food. - It's really like it's specialization, at a community level. - Yeah, so that was how they felt from there. And I'll see, I have to understand, the spiritual relationship, they had the land, and the family structures of what they're used to, and the clan structures within that as well, and how they'd come together at certain times, and then disperse to go hunting, and come together in the summer, and hunt in the winter, and it worked for them, for thousands of years. - Yeah, so the Rekaleta, like, no. (laughs) - Farmers. Yeah, so they believe, fully, that the colonization and Europeanization of the indigenous population was the only way that conversion was going to work, and they wanted to control the environment in order to make that happen. So, but their grand plans did not match their capabilities at all. At most, they had four priests in New France at any given time. - Okay. - So you remember the movie with Seymour Hoffman, was that guy, it was Charlie Wilson's war? - Yeah. - Where Charlie Wilson's like, "Oh, so who's on the Afghan mission here at the CIA?" And he's like, "Oh, it's me and three other guys." That's basically it, just me and three other guys, running the North American mission. They did have influence on the leadership of the colony, because they had financial support from the estates general back in France. But at this time, the Protestants were still allowed to be traders in New France, so that didn't sit well with them either. - Again, merchants, not traitors. - Traitors. - Traitors? - Okay, sorry, I'll enunciate more traders. Make it more American traders. (laughs) Anyways, this didn't really sit well with the Recollette and their supporters in France. Champlain got along well with the Huguenot merchants and the merchant companies, but he was becoming increasingly more devout as a Catholic, so he could be swayed by the priests. He brought the Recolets over. The year after Le Coron came to Quebec and to Wendocki, Wendocki is Huronia. He went back to France to complain about how the traitors and probably guys like Brule, were interfering with the conversion of the indigenous people. - Do you think they were really interfering with it? - Absolutely. - Oh yeah, okay. (laughs) - I'll get into a little bit in a second here, actually. I'll just, we'll talk about that in a minute. - There. - They probably had wives and children there. - Oh yeah, they've been there a long time. - They were 18-year-old boys going to a sexually liberated place that they had never seen before. These beautiful women who are just like, come on, you're not in my clan, let's go. (laughs) - I know for sure. - Yup, you. So when Le Coron was living with the Wendad in 1615, he started developing a Wendad dictionary. But that didn't get very far as the language is quite difficult to learn. Linguistic rules didn't match, right? And it didn't help that the recollect were such pricks to the traitors, that none of them helped them learn the language. (laughs) So Brule was obviously fluent in the Wendad languages. There's nuances between the nations. And Marceles spoke in you. So in this difficulty with the languages, part of an overall problem towards winning the Wendad over. Also Le Coron refused to live with the Wendad families in their long houses with them and insist on having this little special house built so he could live apart, a little special boy. But he could not handle the liberality and nudity that was normal for the Wendad people. - Oh, okay. - 'Cause they only were closed for warmth. Like obviously it would decorate them well. Beauty was important too, a complete lack of privacy, the little kids were nude all the time, naked babies. All activities except for a sexual intercourse were just like open the open. I don't think I'd be comfortable with that either to be honest, nudity, fine, whatever. But like bathroom stuff, I don't know. - Can you go behind a tree or something like, there's a bush right there. - Yeah, but they were in the long houses and they just... - They went to the bathroom in their long house? - Yeah. - Really? - Not like on the floor, I'm sure they had some system, but anyways, they don't get into it because they don't live with them. - Okay, yeah. - I'm not a fan of. - That sounds, I don't... - They had like little pits and stuff like that, but like in the middle of the night. - I guess, yeah. - Like it's cold. - There's a saying, don't shit where you sleep. So this is an inside. - I'm sure they had baskets or something, I don't know. - Yeah, baskets, yeah, that's me. - 'Cause that's pretty typical. The chamber pots and... - Yeah, chamber pots, yeah. - So they kept sending missionaries to live with the Wendad in the over the next few years. And the indigenous people took them in because they understood that it was an important part of maintaining the relationship with the French. And therefore keeping access to the coveted European goods. So things began to improve with the Wendad mission, with the addition of some people who were skilled with languages. In 1920, 1923, 'cause sakes, (laughs) 1623, three priests went to Wendaki, fathers, look how wrong he'd been there before. Nicola Viel and brother Gabrielle Seggard. Look how wrong would not stay long. He was kinda high up. He'd go back to the Quebec mission. Vielle stuck around and learned the language pretty well. And when the Jesuits came over in 1625, the plan was to work with Vielle who would be able to teach them language. Unfortunately, Vielle went off on his own for a spiritual retreat and drowned in a canoe accident. And things were tense for that year between the French and the indigenous people, partly like the Wendad. Partly because of this incident, 'cause the Kitchis Perini, do you remember that? - Yeah. - The Kitchis Perini were the guys who were, that was Tessouette, and he was the guy who was super pissed off with Nicola Divino who said that he'd been Hudson's Bay. - Yes. - So those were the people. So they told the French that the Wendad murdered Vielle, which they definitely didn't, because they were just stirring shit up because they didn't like how they're being kind of edged out in the trade (laughs) with the French and pay for the Wendak, 'cause the Wendad are much more powerful and numerous. But it's very funny that they're stirring shit up. - Mm-hmm. - A lot. - Of course they would. - Yeah. - So the Jesuits had been working on coming back to New France for a while. This had been spearheaded by Enemon Masset, who had been one of the priests who locked themselves in the cabin on the ship to hide from being core back in Acadia, when they were had their little, "conception fit." - Mm-hmm. - "Don't touch me, don't touch me." - Yes. (laughs) - So. - You're gonna be asking Acadia to touch me. (laughs) - Anyways, so in spring, 1625, he would get his chance to come back along with two new faces. Charles La La Mall and Jean de Brebeuf. - Nice. - So Brebeuf is absolutely the most famous of them. And there are several reasons for this. One, he was a prolific contributor to the Jesuits relations. That's the annual report sent back to France. So he was one of the earliest ethnologists. - Okay. - Like he was really observing and writing back what he saw and he would live with them for 20 years. - And was he a prolific writer? - Yes. - Okay. - Very much, so. And he had a huge personality. Like, this dude is intense. He's like the most Jesuit, a Jesuit has Jesuited. Like he's so intense. - I'm envisioning that Austin Powers movie with the militant arm and the salvation arm. - This, she's like, they would lock eyes and be like, "I get you." - Yeah. - He's intense. And he came to a grisly end that he had been very much looking forward to. I shit you not. - Yeah. - He's all in for dying for Christ. - Yes. He really fantasized about it. He's that kind of guy. That gets a whole other episode. It needs its own thing. So the Jesuits had been given a great deal of power over the colony. When they arrived, they recalled both Brule and Marsolle and ordered them back to France because of how their immoral ways were interfering with how the priests wanted the colony to develop. - Did they go? - Marsolle developed, or desperately wanted to stay. So convinced the Jesuits to let him stay by telling them that he would teach them the any language. - Oh, okay. - So Brule had his back up way more. I love him. You only get snippets of personality. He was set to be shipped back home, but he fell ill and had to stay back and be nursed by the Jesuits. And they somehow talked him into teaching them the Wendat language. - Okay. - But they sent them back to France the next year. - Oh. - I'm surprised they went. A prize they weren't just like, get fucked. Like, I'm just staying here. - But no, but it's ice cold by the Jesuits. You're like, hey, thanks for the language lessons. Fuck off. - Yeah. Yeah, that is, wow. - Yeah. So I know the tensions between the interpreters, those guys and the Jesuits were already high from the jump, but that set the tone permanently. And they would have an incredibly acrimonious relationship going forward. - It sounds like they came back though. - Oh, yeah, they come back. 'Cause they make money. - Like they're forced back to France. They must have gotten permission to come back to Canada at a later date. - Oh, yeah. Yeah, they definitely come back. 'Cause they're financially valuable. - Mm, yeah. - So Breboof had gone to live in you that first year. They were there instead of the previously planned journey to Wendaki when he was supposed to go learn from VL. So they had held on going to Wendaki until 1626. So two Jesuits, John De Breboof and Anne De Nui. Yes, a dude named Anne. - Right. - Very much in a boy named Sue, kind of. - Yeah. Is it, is it A-N-N? - A-N with an E, baby. - A-B, okay. All right, I did not know that that was ever a male man. - I have no idea how someone gets named Anne. - Okay. - Anyways, so yeah. And then there was a racolat named Joseph de la Rock Dial. So the racolat had written about how difficult the journey was to Wendaki when they had gone in previous years. They'd been back and for like, 'cause this is a decade out, right, from when they first went. They wrote about how horrible the mosquitoes were. - Constant problem. - And that people's eyes would swell up 'cause the bugs were so bad. - Oh yeah, yeah, they're bad. They're the worst in the world. - Yeah, they complained about having only the ground to sleep on and how horrible the food was. - No spices. - Oh, listen, I'm gonna tell you. - Oh, it gets worse, okay. - It's, it's gross. Okay, I'm not supposed to be judgy, it's like a historian, but I'm gonna be so judgy here, I don't care. - As a general foodie, you're a very picky eater. - I'm a very picky eater. - I know this about you. And I'm not surprised you're judgy, I'll say that. - I, you know what? We'll see what you think about this. When I tell you and see if you're like, "Hmm, I might draw the line there." - Okay, let's hear it. - So the main thing that they would eat is super transportable is cornmeal. - Okay, yeah. - Or a type of cornmeal. - Bland, but all right. - Bland, they boil it, it'll take like 45 minutes to boil. They put some ash in it 'cause it did something like the mineralize, whatever. - Sure. - Some chemical reaction made the proteins and what not accessible. - Okay. - Science, reasons. - Sure. - So this porridge grits kind of situation. - Yeah. - Honestly, that's not the worst, it's terrible. - Yeah, like I said, blend, but you know, it's calories, whatever. - Yeah, but they would catch fish or birds. - And throw them in the pot whole. - Ew. - Without cleaning the animal at all. - Yeah. - Feathers and scales at all. - Okay, that seems wrong. - Yeah, and not gutting it. - Yeah, yeah, that's a huge problem. - And so it would boil and then the scum of the scales and feathers and other grossness that would be skimmed off the top and then they would dig in. - Okay, well, I mean, at least taste skimmed the poop air. (laughing) - And the feathers. - And the feathers. (laughing) - Like why do I pluck it? - I don't know, 'cause it takes, I don't know. Why not gut it? - Yeah, I don't know. - Anyways, and if they caught a small animal, they would burn the fur off in the fire and then toss that in. - Yeah, I have heard of that. - But why not gut it? - Yeah, I don't know. - I don't think they should boil it with their colon. - Yeah. - I disagree with that on the fundamental gut health level. No, thank you. As on appetizing as the plain unseasoned corn mush is, yeah, I would prefer that than the stew from hell. (laughing) Would you do all the line there? - Yes, I'd be like, let's gut it. How would you do that? (laughing) - I can do with the feathers, but I'm not dealing with the intestines. - Let's take those out, throw 'em in the bush. Throw 'em in the river, do whatever. - Yeah. - You know those are really good for bait, for fish and stuff like that. - No, they love a poopy colon. - All the parts that you don't want, you fish with them or like do whatever. - Cool, I'm never doing that. (laughing) Ever. No, that's nasty, no. Okay, so that did not go over well for the priests either. So keep in mind, these are the wealthier Frenchmen. - They were not used to eating plain porridge, let alone. (laughing) - Shits too. (laughing) - Like so the laborers, interpreters, they would have porridge, right? Like you know the nursery rhyme. Peas porridge, hot peas porridge, cold peas porridge in the pot nine days old. - Yeah, yeah. - Like that, they were eating mush. - They were like fine. - They were just probably just one of salt. - Yeah, yeah, but the wealthy one guys were like, where's the sauce? (laughing) - But you know what, these were missionary priests. So they were in for the suffering. Honestly, I think they were writing about this as, and they're like, we had it so hard. - Oh yeah, you know, they might've been really overselling it. I don't know. Maybe it was like a very rare thing. Like, you know what, we have no time, but we know this is, they'll be fine. It's like this rare, like it's not like they do this every day. And then the priests are like, ah, this is how they always eat. It was like just on a trip or something like that. - Who knows. - I don't know. - I still disagree with not getting your food. - Yeah, it doesn't take that much work. - But yeah, I do think that they really definitely wanted people to know how dramatic things were overseas. 'Cause that stuff sells. How are you gonna get funding? You want the rich lady with this salacious tale about these naked people eating weird stuff. - Yeah. That was a seller for the Jesuit relations. Like these books got around. It was information that got relayed. Something Jesters were not too happy about was that they were expected to pull their own weight for the journey. - Oh, okay. - Yeah, so these were posh boys. And they absolutely believed that indigenous people were less than them. So they were expecting that they were going to act a servant scaring all their baggage. (laughing) - They thought that they were gonna be like the India or the African expeditions where they're like, the white guys got like a tea set and stuff like that. And then- - And then there's like eight guys loaded up. - Yeah. - Carrying all this stuff. Yeah, no, no. They're in a canoe. So these are young men. They went out, like they're not talking 'cause they're busy, they're paddling. They would not help carry things at all. They're like, whatever, I got my own stuff. They don't care. - Yeah, leave it, bye. - I don't care. Why do you need this? What is that? So sometimes in portages, it would take him a couple trips. - Yeah. (laughing) - To bring his crap with him. - Yeah. Only two? - Oh, sometimes. - And I'm sure he wasn't the one who's carrying the canoe. - They probably wouldn't trust him with it. - Yeah, that's true. That's true. Yeah, don't trust him. - No. - Yeah, that was something that valuable. - No. Yeah, they were not impressed with these priests at all. They basically thought they were useless idiots. They couldn't speak the language. So they're stupid. They're pathetic canoeists. (laughing) - I guess you imagine. - They couldn't hunt with shit. And they're just fumbling around behind them, making a racket with their stuff. (laughing) There's, oh, like-- - That's amazing. - And these are young men, right? - Yeah. - Like at the prime of their life. - And for those listeners that aren't, I love canoeing. - I have canoeed. - Yes, I know, I know. - I did a three day portage trip from my very first camping thing up French River. There's multiple portages, canoeed all day. - But my-- - I can hate it. (laughing) - I love canoeing. I was a canoe instructor at a camp. I've since been like a certified and all that sort of stuff. Canoeing is a skill. - Yeah. - It's not easy to do canoeing well. - Oh, okay. - And these guys have been doing it their entire lives. - Yeah. - And be so good at it. - Yeah. - And be like with these morons. And these are super tippy canoes too. They're not even like the well balanced ones that like, they're very, these are very maneuverable. Not like the well balanced ones that we have now, the fiberglass ones. Not that they're well balanced, but they're still canoes. I mean, Jesus, they're tippy. And when they were on these canoes, if they started paddling, they were expected to just keep paddling until they were done for the day. They couldn't just like help out for a little, oh, I'll just help for a little bit. No, no, no, get on it. Yeah, thanks. They must have been such annoying people to be around. Could you imagine the amount of shit that they talked about them under their breath? Oh my God. But they also didn't actually talk very much. The Recolettes in their writing, they noted how silent the trip was 'cause they're busy and also there's danger. - Also another thing, I don't know how big these canoes were, but usually canoes are like a two or a three person thing. They probably would have had these priests in the middle. Because the front's the power, the back's the steering. - Yeah. - That's how this works. If they had to have a priest in the front, I would be so angry in the back 'cause you could never have them in the back. Like there's zero chance like-- - You didn't go anywhere. - You wouldn't go anywhere. - You wouldn't go, you're just-- - You wouldn't crash. - Circles and crash everywhere. - This guy's never been in a canoe before. - Yes. - In his whole life, and Breboof is a big dude. - Yeah. - Like he's big, honestly, but honestly though, the Wendat people are pretty big. Like they're bigger than the French people. - Oh really, okay. - Well they're healthier. They eat well, especially the French peasants. Like the working class people, like laborers in that, they'd be like short little dudes 'cause they've hardly had a good meal in a day their whole life. - Yeah, and the Wendat are eating gay men. - Squash, beans, corn, like starvation is a risk, but starvation is a risk in France too. - True. - So these guys were not impressed when these idiots. (laughs) But they're like, well, we gotta bring these guys 'cause the French traders, the merchant guy, Champlain says we have to, right? And their wife wants a pot. - Yes. (laughs) - And they want a blade. And you know what? Maybe they can get a gun. These are very smart people. So they wrote these complaints. So the record, there's more like letters. Gabriel Sagard wrote a book later about this information from his time in New France. But so the Recollette writings were more plain and historian George Sui, he's the indigenous historian that I really liked. He preferred the Recollette's writing over the Jesuit's writing. He wrote that although their comments frequently show a pronounced cultural and religious bias, they almost never display the frankly contemptuous, scoffing or indifferent tone, customary with the Jesuits. So Gabriel Sagard, who wasn't on this particular trip to Wendaki, wrote about the generosity of the Wendak people and how they were always willing to give any food or anything that they had to share. Sagard is a Recollette, who's declarified. Sagard wrote that they reciprocate hospitality and give such assistance to one another, that the necessities of all are provided for without there being any indigent beggar in their towns or villages. So the Jesuits also commended their generosity in their writings. But any complimentary writing was usually accompanied by what I kept thinking as I was reading as bitchiness. - Yeah, okay. - So here is Bravo talking about their political and civic structure. I do not claim here to put our Indians on the same level as the Chinese, Japanese and other perfectly civilized nations, but only to distinguish them from the condition of beasts and to rank them among men. And to show that among them, there is even some sort of political and civic light. - I don't think that sounds like a compliment. - No, it's super isn't. It's them being super bitchy. It's a back-handed compliment. It's all knuckles. - It's all knuckles. (laughing) That's a closed fist. - Yeah. So when talking about sharing food, and this is when I wrote in the margin of the book, it was like bitchy. So talking about sharing food and the respect the Wendell had for one another, he wrote this bitchy little line. Admittedly, these are small things, but they nevertheless demonstrate that these people are not quite so rude and unpolished as one might suppose. - Okay. (laughing) - Insult after, it's like that's their, to say their judgy is an understatement. - Yeah, this is all judgement all the time. - All right, so they finally get to Wendaki after their long slog of a silent trip with a group of men who thought they were total tools, and the priests tried to start their evangelizing. They were still learning the language, which went much better for a breadbook who was quite skilled in languages. So Danui and he was not good with languages. - Okay. - Why do you even write Danui? Why don't you just call him Ann? - Also, why would you go on a trip like this if you were not good with languages? I guess I hope in a prayer, like I'll figure it out. - You know what? That's a good point because, but it's because the confidence of these people. - Yes. - It's aspirational. - Yeah, hubris, I think is a-- - It's like, yeah, me and three other guys, it was totally fine. We're gonna convert North America to Christianity. It's gonna be fine. (laughing) Oh, fine, we'll let the Jesuits come and we'll work together. It's like you and two more guys. Like, it's a handful now. Sure, yeah, we can do it. It's impressive. - It is. - So Ann, he wasn't good with the languages and he went back to Quebec the next year 'cause he couldn't, I don't know, he couldn't speak. - Just tail between his legs. Like, this isn't working. I can't understand any of them. - They keep making fun of me. (laughing) - So Danui, he's the other guy. He decided that he was gonna get really into the trade situation and he went off with the neutrals and he was there for several months and he's tried to negotiate a trade deal with them circumventing the Wendat middlemen position. - Oh, that's dangerous. - Sure is. So he basically was betraying the Wendat. - Yeah. - And he's super lucky he didn't get killed by the Wendat. - Yeah. Yeah, I don't know what happened to that guy. (laughing) That whole party, they just disappeared somehow. I don't know. - Oh, they would own it. They're very honorable. - Oh yeah, that's true. That's true. - They're sneaky, do it. They're like, no, no. - Yeah, he deserved to be killed. - Yeah. - What do you do it? But they didn't kill him. - Okay. - So he's lucky. But he had to go back to Quebec. Don't win that. My time's done here. So by 1628, Briboof, he was flying solo as a missionary in Wendaki. He made progress with the language by taking little kids aside and chatting with them and maybe the children's natural curiosity helped keep them from getting annoyed by the large man they made fun of for looking like a dog because of his facial hair. So Briboof was pretty hard with his spreading of the gospel. He went like intense. He's like, no, no, we're not gonna talk about the love of God and Christ's mercy. We're gonna show pictures of hell and demons and scare the shit out of everybody. - So he went super hard. - Yes, he went super hard, yeah. And he did kind of live off by himself in the cabin and he had a painted red cross in front of his cabin. And this developed into a little bit of a hairy situation when a drought developed. And a shaman named Tenerin Hayyunyan came to help relieve it. So this shaman claimed that the red cross was scaring the thunderbirds away which was keeping the rain away. And some people objected to the red color itself and not the cross. So Briboof thought that a shaman and any other healer they were tools of the devil. So he took this opportunity to go head to head with him to see who could make it rain. So Tenerin Hayyunyan and the village leaders, the head men, they wanted the cross taken down. And Briboof said he'd have it painted white. And if that didn't work, then it would prove that the shaman was wrong. So they agreed to try that. And when it didn't rain after it was painted white, Briboof had it painted red again and prayed to it and kissed it and had others kind of give offerings to it. And it reigned. So he won that round. - All right. - And there was a good harvest and all was well. And that was his first battle against a Wendat spiritual leader. There's going to be a lot more. - Really? Okay. - It's basically a spiritual civil war that happens. - Interesting. - Of course there would be. Yeah, like there's an existing religion there. - It's not a religion, it's... - Or it's an existing set of spirituality, right? And he is coming in, yeah, belief system, but he's coming in and saying like, that's all nonsense. All of those... And there would be a certain amount of like power that these spiritual leaders would have had and beliefs. - Yeah. - And he's like, no, we're erasing all that. This is the new thing. So yeah, they would... - Because they didn't have like, they didn't have a priest class. - Mm-hmm. - And you know, and one of the things in the Jesuit relations, they didn't have words for sin. So like these concepts are like, we're trying to tell you, oh, that's a sin. And like, what do you mean? We don't understand what you're talking about. Like a sin, okay? It is meaningless. So he has to, as a linguist, find a way to explain things like the Trinity. - Oh goodness, yeah, that's gonna... - Sin. - Yeah. - Heaven and hell. You know, the origin story, they can work with that 'cause you know, the water and the flood and you know, I mean, they can find a way in. So he has to completely find a way using their language to communicate a Christian religion. - In a language that he is bad at. - He becomes very good at it. He's very, very good at it. In a pretty short span of time. - Good for him. - Like that's what he's known for. - Okay, that's what you would need. You would need to be a master of the language. And he becomes a very embedded part of the community. Beloved, like they call him Echon because they couldn't pronounce Echon. - Yeah. - So Echon, so, and then Echon becomes like a category, like a title. - Okay. - So if someone else comes later, like Echon, like it's a name. - Yeah. - But yeah, it's gonna be, it's gonna be a wild where he sees baptisms. Because especially the record that we're not in favor of an easy baptism, you need to be fully understanding what you're doing, which I respect. - Yeah, that's fair. - 'Cause that is kind of a foundational, I mean, we baptize babies. - Yeah. - But it's because you're part of the community. There's an expectation of the full involvement of the community. - And there's the community vows to teach. - Yes. - Right? - And then, and I know that we went to the Mennonite baptism. I mean, you can only be baptized as an adult and you have to kind of be sponsored as an Mennonite, 'cause it's a commitment that you are making individually. But Catholic religion, Anglican, other, I think, Presbyterian, he baptized babies, the Christening. Anyway, so it's gonna be a long road to get to baptism because they can't, they don't have a word for, they don't have an understanding or a way to explain the Trinity, like, you know, in Catholicism, like there's like a catechism, like there's different, there's certain things that you must be able to answer to be a person who understands what it means to be Catholic. So it's gonna be a long haul before they get to baptisms and things like that. But Brabiff would not have a long time to get started on this because things really kick off back in Quebec. So they're gonna get recalled because the English are coming and things do not go well for the French and the Jesuits are forced back to France for a few years. - Okay. - So, but they come back and then they are relentless in their mission. - Yeah, all right. - Come with me, it's gonna be bad. Honestly, it's disease and it's not intentional. - Yeah. - It's bad and it's heartbreaking. And the reason we know about this heartbreaking stuff is because the Jesuit relations, because they write as they are in it and it's so sad. These children that they love are dying in their arms. Like it's so sad. So anyways, for episodes coming up, we had the original British invasion of Quebec. My guys who aren't that much better than pirates. Then we had the Acadian Civil War where we get to talk about what the people at the Beaver magazine called The Lioness of Acadia. - Nice. - And then we had the life and murder of Etch and Brule. - Nice, I'm looking forward to that one. - Yeah. So I hope you subscribe to the show, wherever you listen. And you can catch up on those episodes when they come out, but it's gonna be every two weeks 'cause this is a lot of work and I've got three kids. - All right. - And yeah. - And don't forget, five star reviews. Please tell a friend, tell an enemy about the podcast. Looking forward to it. All right. - Thanks. - Thanks, bye. (upbeat music)