Donnacona and Cartier

Hi and welcome to this episode of Maple History Podcast. I'm your host, Christina Austin, and my guest today, again, is my husband Simon. As always. Today we'll be talking about a heritage moment of history, Cartier and his discovery of Kanata. This is one of those parts of history that most people vaguely recollect from elementary school. Heritage moments, thank you very much. Yeah, I know. That was about it. They may know a little bit, but they may just, probably it's just the heritage moment they know. I rewatched it. It's so bad. Really? So bad, so bad. So they have it where there's basically what happens is there's the group of indigenous people, name, like they don't say who they are at all. Yeah, no, nothing. Nothing. No information given, even though we know who they were. And Cartier and his men with a priest are trudging along and then they meet. And then the indigenous chief is saying, come on over to my village, my Kanata. Yeah. And the priest's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. He's saying, Kanata, that's this land. And then in behind Cartier and the priest comes this kind of, I don't know, like just a regular crewman, he's like, uh, Captain, I think what he's saying is those villages and the priest's, no, no, no, I'm sure that he's saying, Kanata is. Yeah. Yeah. I remember that. And then that's the heritage moment. Sweet. That's how Canada got its name. It's actually kind of, I don't know if it's not embarrassing. That's not the right word. It's funny. But that's not even at all. Like, no, it's not even. It is. There is some truth to it. Like the, that Kanata, like, and the Canadians and the, like, there is some truth to that. I'm going to get into that a little bit more in the next, not maybe not next episode, but the one after that, when I'm talking about what happened to this group of indigenous people, the name and everything. But it's like, there's something to it. The, I only remember three heritage moments. Um, there's the, this one, the, the Kanata one. I remember the burnt toast one. And I remember, um, there's one where they're like signing something. I forget what it was. They had the guy, one guy had to like sign an X or something like that. It was about reading or something. Yeah. I don't remember what it was. Yeah. It was about, uh, one room schoolhouses and school teachers and how they taught. And then, and then did you ever see the sacrilege moments? I did. It was amazing. The sacrilege is like, try to fake read it. I can't, I can't read. Oh shit. Future. Um, this, this, I don't know if I recommend watching the sacrilege moment for the Kanata episode. Oh no. Because it does an age well. It's so bad. It's super homophobic. Oh, he said, Oh geez. Okay. I didn't think of that. It's so bad. Okay. So that's our, that's basically our 90s history of Karate. Anyway, so Karate didn't discover anything since there's already people here in the St. Lawrence and the gas bay regions who had been here for hundreds, if not thousands of years. Yeah. There's always been people kind of basically as soon as it opened up, there was people, but whether it was that group or they moved out and you know, how it went. Yeah, could have been whoring or migrating or whatever yet. So the majority actually pretty much all of what we know about Karate's voyages to Canada is from three books. Basically the voyages of Jacques Cartier is like one, voyage to voyage three. They were his like he wrote them? No. Oh, he had like a writer? Was it a ghost writer type of thing? No, we don't know. Oh, we don't know. So he may have known about the, he may have seen the third book, but we don't even have the original manuscripts. Okay. We have translated ones. So we have like the words one in English and there's one in Italian. Okay. So we don't have originals. Gotcha. It doesn't mean that they're not true. Yeah. Or like true relations according to Karate's log. So there seems to be truth here. Okay. Okay. Like it's, but it's a first person POV kind of thing. Yeah. Okay. So you take it with a grain of salt and it's only the European, you get some words of the indigenous people. Okay. But not, but it's always filtered through. Would they even be his log books or would they be the log books? I don't even know how that would work. Oh, he was the captain. So does the captain do the writing? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Probably one of the few people that knew how to write. Well, there's, yeah, there would be, I mean, there would be some be a handful. Yeah. I just wanted to pop in here and clarify something about the authorship of the voyages. They are attributed to Jacques Cartier as the author, but he may not have written them. He may have had someone else write them or someone may have taken his logs and done it for him. And it's not clear if he saw them all before they were published. It's likely that the third voyage was published after death. And the second voyage he may have personally approved it. So just wanted to make that clear about that. Yeah. So as I said, there was three voyages. So, and there was probably there would have been correspondence like, like, royal records and things like that that would corroborate what was going on and give and give other information about who he was and what happened and things like that. Yep. Okay. So Jacques Cartier, he was from a little town in the north of northwest of France called Saint Malo. If I'm saying that wrong, I'm sorry. He married well in 1520 and he had an estate in Saint Malo that he would retire to after his messy Canadian trips. It's believed that he traveled to Brazil and Newfoundland with another explorer, possibly Giovanni de Veronzo. But there's not a lot of detail available at those trips. And honestly, I know a lot of the Canadian history textbooks and things like that go into a lot of the explorer era of like, I like it. That's about the Europeans. This is about Canada and the people here. The one of the reasons I imagined they did that was that it was easy, right? Like, they had they had some records of like these things. So these things happened. So it's kind of like, I don't know. I almost want to call it lazy, but yeah. Well, it was also the the march of progress was coming for North America. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah. So it's the, I call it Wiggish. Wiggish. Yeah, it's like a. That to do with the wings? Like, no, it's W H I G. It's like a, it's like a political party. But yeah, so it says Wiggish view of like, we're, we're constantly seeking progress. Oh, okay. Yeah. It's almost like the, it's like the British version of like the American Manifest Destiny. No, no, that's not meant manifest destiny is different than that, because manifest is conquering. It's about we are divinely owed this land. Yeah. Whereas Wiggishness is that history and human progress is continually moving forward and improving. Oh, okay. It's like a kind of more of a philosophy. Okay. Then conquering manifesto. Okay. All right. It makes sense. Okay. So Francis the first commission Cartier in 1534, and Columbus and Cortez had already racked up a huge amount of atrocities in what they called the New World so far. Yeah, mostly down South American. Yeah. I guess yes, I was going to say South in America and South America. Yeah, it was because the Spanish and Portuguese at this point had been given the New World by the Pope. Okay. So the Spanish got, I forget which one it was, but the Spanish got some part and the Portuguese at the other. And then it's like, oh, well, the rest of it, they don't we didn't know about. So I guess the English and this French can have at it. And that's kind of where we are, right? So that's why the English came to North North America. Oh, interesting. Oh, so they didn't, so they because the they just had to obey the Pope. Well, they didn't have to. It's just they'd already been there. So they were already settled. So they'd have to go to war while they'd have, they were already always at war. Yeah, but they would have to fight their way in. Yes. Yeah, which would be all harder. That's true. So Carci's plan was really to find a passage to Asia. That was what he wanted to do because they still didn't know about this whole North America continent. Yeah. They just thought, Oh, well, there is like something there, but they didn't know how huge it was. Yeah, yeah. It's hard to fathom even today, right? Like how big it is like it's like, yeah, it's really hard to wrap your head around. And that's why, yeah, if we go, if we travel west, the idea of driving west, it's like, Oh my God, yeah, it was bad enough when we drove east. Yeah, at least there's stuff there. Yeah, it's true. Sorry, no offense to Saskatchewan and Manitoba. Only ever driven to Winnipeg from here. And that was far. Yeah, it's far. All right. So on April 20th, 1543, Cartier in 60 men set sail in just one boat this time. And they made good time. They may they got here in 20 days. And they arrived at the Strait of Bel-Ail, which is between Newfoundland and Labrador. And the first people they saw on Labrador, the Labrador coast, were likely the Bayothic. And they described them as wild and savage folk who painted themselves with certain tan colors. The Bayothic really loved Ochre. Yeah, they're huge fans. Yeah, yeah, you were telling me about this before. And like they painted on on themselves, probably for mosquitoes or like, keep the bugs off and all that stuff. But it probably spiritual things do. So there's a lot. And it was and it is Bayothic, not Bayothic. That's what I thought was Bayothic. I don't know why I thought that. But then I was reading about and then listened to a podcast about a new book that's come out. I will be talking about this book later. And the author and the host, they kept saying Bayothic and I'm like, well, it must be that because what do I know? All right. So they sail down the coast of Newfoundland around P.E. There's all over the place, basically. And from there, they sailed down to New Brunswick and into Scheller Bay. And it's here they first encountered 40 or 50 canoes of indigenous people who would loudly attempted to trade with them. They paddled their canoes out. And they made a huge racket to show that they wanted to trade with the French. But the French were alarmed, scared shitless. I don't know. But they sheer number of them. And they eventually fired off a couple of cannons to scare them away. Oh, okay. Yeah. So it's likely that these people were the Mi'kma who had encountered European fishermen many, many times already. So they were experienced traders. So the next day, a smaller number of Mi'kma paddled up, paddled their canoes up to Cartier ship with furs to trade. This time it went much more smoothly and the French went ashore and traded kettles and knives and other items for the furs. So I guess the Mi'kma went back and they're like, Oh my God, what the hell's wrong with these guys? Anyways, let's try again tomorrow. And like maybe they're scared. We're just trying to get some pots. Maybe we'll send the women. I don't know. Actually, no, don't send the women, not to the French. Yeah. All right. So Cartier continued on with his journey, but had some bad weather force them to take shelter in the Gas Bay Bay. And this is where they met several hundreds of data conans and their chief, Donacona. So those data conans were from the Quebec city area, but they were in Gas Bay to hunt seals and fish as they would do every summer. And Cartier was not very complimentary of the staticonans. So in the voyages, it's written. So I don't know who whatever the author related to the logs says in a quote, this people may well be called savage for they are the sorriest folk there can it be in the world. And the whole lot of them had not anything above the value of five soo, their canoes and fishing nets accepted. They go quite naked except for a small skin, which they cover their privy parts. And for a few old skins, which they throw over their shoulders, they are not all of the same race or languages that first we met. They have their heads shaved all around in circles except for a tuft on top of the head, which they leave long like a horse's tail. They have no other dwelling but their canoes, which they turn upside down and sleep on the ground underneath. They eat their meat almost raw, only warming it a little on the coals and the same with their fish. They never eat anything that has a taste of salt in it. They are wonderful thieves and steal everything they can carry off. That's our introduction to the staticonans and donna kona. That's it. They don't eat anything with salt. Well, no kidding. They don't have salt. They have the ocean. Oh, yeah. They really don't like salt. They hate it. They think it's gross. So that is a conflict. Yeah. A food conflict. Yeah. Wow. It's interesting. They warm it on the coals. Although if they just seared it, that would kill any bacteria. Well, it wouldn't be bacteria. It's fresh. Well, if it was fish, if it was, I don't know if they're talking about seal meat or something like that. Probably. Maybe. I don't know. Yeah. It's hard to say. Yeah. I don't know much about seal though. Like I've never never had it. Like maybe you can eat it just raw. Well, they do. The Inuit. Oh, yeah. You're right. Yeah. They love it. It's like. It's probably totally fine. Yeah. It's like makes them very happy. It's like, oh my god, this is like if Inuit people who live down south when they go home and they get their home food or country food would be like comfort food. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. All right. So not long after Car Chaines Men were on the shore of Gas Bay, the Gas Bay Bay, Car Chaines Men erected a huge 30 foot one cross with a coat of arms and the Florida Lee with the words Viva Rod of France. And they knelt before it and they, you know, made the sign of the cross and were like doing their thing. So this really pissed off Donacona. So he got in his canoe with his brother and two nephews and he went off on Cartier in what Cartier, Cartier describes as a harang or at least the void as described as a harang while still keeping his distance from the friendship. So Donacona had some sense to keep back. Yeah. Cartier understood this harang as Donacona making it known that this land belonged to him and that he shouldn't have put up a cross without permission. Cartier tried to make it seem like the cross was just a landmark and tried to play Kate Donacona with an axe in exchange for Donacona's bear skin. This brought Donacona in his group closer to the friendship and Cartier had his men board the canoe they were on and seized the five men. Okay. Yeah. And once they were on board, they tried to wine and dine them and gave them trinkets and things like that. Eventually, they said they were only going to release three of them. Okay. And the two that he was keeping were or given French clothes, it kind of dressed up. Here you go. And these two were Donacona's sons or possibly nephews. Okay. Because if you remember the Mathur, Leneal family, the son, the children of your sisters are your sons and daughters. So it doesn't really, even if we just all just call them sons, because it doesn't really matter because they would be considered their children. Yeah. So the ones that were going to be released were given hatchets and knives. And keep in mind here that there is a complete language barrier. Yeah. Yeah. Couldn't understand. No. And all this was done with gestures and some sort of sign language that they were just making up on the spot. Yeah. Well, so it's so frustrating. Just maddening. So Donacona quickly understood that the younger men, likely teenagers were going to be kept by Cartier. So what may have been happening from Donacona's perspective is that he was okay with the two boys being kept by Cartier because he wanted to encourage trade between the Sadakonans and the French. Yeah. So Donacona, Donacona would have been well aware that the Big Ma and other coastal nations had access to European trade goods. This is not new information. Yeah. So they would have had axes and blades and kettles and pots and whatnot. It would have been a huge source of wealth. Yeah. Military strength and slag. Just everything's easier with metal blades, right? Yeah. So it's even possible that the Sadakonans would have even seen these weapons used in a massacre of over 200 Sadakonans on their way to the gas bay hunting and fishing grounds just the previous year. This massacre was done by the with a Sadakonans called the Tudemons, but were likely the Big Ma. Okay. So the two leaders, Cartier and Donacona, were both operating with familiar frameworks in their own world, so to speak. So they were familiar with taking or giving hostages to benefit future trade, at least Donacona was. Donacona likely had a tradition of giving children or young people to other tribes to encourage this peaceful trade, whereas Cartier had the recent examples of the Spanish kidnapping people, not to foster mutually beneficial relationships, but to have young people who could act as interpreters in service to the Spanish or in this case, the French Crown. Well, it would foster trade in a way, but it's not necessarily mutually beneficial. It's more a path to dominance for the Europeans. Yeah. Whereas I believe the indigenous nations were, they were work. I mean, they fought for ground and they had wars and things like that. But these types of trading of children would have been more for trade, for relationship building, not threats. But the keeping of hostages was pretty typical over in Europe. I mean, they took hostages all the time. They conquered someone, they take the sons and take them back home. And they'd raise them, kind of like to remember in Game of Thrones. Yeah, yeah. They would take, yeah, yeah. There's truth in that. That was the reason that that shows popular. One of the reasons is the history of people think it's history. Yeah, but they would do that. Yeah, it's true. 100%. Was it named Reek? All of them? Yeah. Well, eventually, but that's not the beginning. But yeah, that was the Game of Thrones guy, was like that other son. Yeah. So, Carche had boggered off back to France with the two boys, Domagaya and Tainoné. We don't have really record of what happened to them there. We know that they learned some French and that they weren't baptized. Okay. And Carche had said he would return the boys the next year. And he was true to his word. He came back the next year. He brought them home the next summer when he received another commission to return. And this time, he brought three ships and more men. Okay. And the boys didn't die over there or anything like that. No, no, get sick. Wow. I mean, I don't think that's sick, but they survived. Whatever happened. Okay. Yeah. So we don't really know exactly what happened, but they came back alive. They do. You know, all right. So what we do know is that Tainoné and Domagaya were telling Carche about their homeland. Okay. And then their internship wasn't as easy. Okay. A little more rough. But then they did guide Carche down the St. Lawrence to their village of Stadakona, which is now it's part of Quebec City. Okay. So the exploration of the St. Lawrence took approximately eight weeks because Carche was an explorer. He was very skilled and he studied the plants and the animals and the islands and everything. And he was taking that's all in his voyages. He was noting all of this information. He's making maps, right? I can't remember. I think so. I think I read that map. Actually, Champlain was really good with the maps. Yeah. But that's later. And on these travels, he was making plans and soliciting commitments from Tainoné and Domagaya to have them guide him to the village of Hochalaga in the land of Saginé beyond. We don't know what this Saginé thing is. We'll talk about that a bit. So when they came near Ealdor Leon on September 8th, 1535, they were spotted, but they were treated with caution until Domagaya and Tainoné were able to identify themselves. What Carche would have seen is he traveled down the St. Lawrence before finally arriving at St. Acona and eventually anchoring or landing. I don't know if he anchored at the mouth of the St. Charles River. There were several unfortified settlements. So first he would have seen Adjóasse, Starnatum. I'm saying this just brutalizing this. Tila and citaden. I did my best. Beyond St. Acona were Teccanonde and Atchalassie. So these probably would have been led by headmen, like chiefs. Okay. Underchiefs. It seems like it, Donna Cona, seems to be the guy. Associated chiefs. So it's not, it's extremely clear if they're all the same nation or Hochalaga. Later on, if we don't know if they're the same nation. Yeah, but they're probably at least affiliated or friendly or something. Yeah. It's kind of like the Haudenosaunee who are like five groups, right? Like this is, they're not. So the Haudenosaunee were already a confederacy at this point. Yeah. Yeah. So Donna Cona came alongside Cartag's ship with 12 canoes to celebrate the return of his sons with a song and dance. Cartag of course called it a harangue. But it was really like a party. Yeah, he was a celebratory song and dance because they did dance a lot. Yeah. So the boys returned to their father and Cartag believed that they were telling him all these great things about being friends. Ooh, yay. Yeah. We're French now. That may have been how it started, but when Tainoné and D'Amagaya spend about a week with their father away from Cartag, it seems that the real story was finally coming out. Okay. We don't know exactly what was said, but Cartag noticed that his formerly friendly guides were now chilly and were no longer willing to take him to Hochalaga. But I mean, they were stolen. Yeah. They must have been passed. Yeah. And go to France and have all these restrictions and the freedoms they had at home. Like it just would have been, it would have hated it. Yeah. Okay. So Cartag was bound and determined to get to Hochalaga and Donacona was equally determined to dissuade him from going. So he kept offering gifts such as fish and eels and even gave Cartag his 10 year old daughter. Oh. And two young nephews. Oh, wow. Okay. There is, there is so much children. There's so much children giving in this, this next bit like, like, wow, keep giving children. Okay. Little girls. And I'm like, oh, I don't like it. And you try it. You're not to like, whatever. Why are they even with them? That's weird. No, no, the Donacono is giving the children. Oh, sorry. I thought it was the other way around. No, Cartag is not giving children. Yeah. Donacono is giving is totally makes a daughter and nephews. Yeah. So Bruce trigger my old friend believes that giving the children to Cartag was to forge a strong alliance and was an attempt to keep him from Hochalaga. Okay. That was what Bruce thinks of the playlists. Yeah. With it. Like, that would be like down the river. Yeah. Hochalaga is Montreal. Okay. Stadakona is Quebec City. Yeah. So. Just to give you a geography placement. Yeah. And so I imagine it would be like, um, maybe not like a warring tribe or warring group, but like, rival. Yeah. It seems like it's more rival. Okay. So Donacona did not want Hochalaga to get to get a relationship with the French in opposition to them. Yeah. Because he wants to keep the relationship under his control. Of course. So the knives and blades, the pots, the kettles, like all the wealth. Yeah. Yeah. Because, um, if I lived in a place that had no metal pots and I had to cook in clay, play pots, and then my husband went off and came home and someone had a pot and be like, and I'm like, why didn't you get me a pot? You need to get me a pot. Figure it out. So I understand the drive. Yeah. Yeah. There was many factors that were pulling these men to get these pots. Well, if you I don't think the women gave a shit about the knives, but like, I'm sure they did, really, but they, the pots were like, oh my God, I need a pot. Well, I imagine it made cutting down the trees, like having an axe. Oh, yeah. Would be like, I don't even know how you cut down a tree without an axe. Well, they had stone tools, but then they also did things like they choked off the roots. Yeah. Okay. So I don't remember, I don't remember exactly how they do that, but they choke off the roots. So they killed the tree and then they pull it down. Yeah. That's one of the ways. Yeah, you could do that. So it took a long time. Oh, yeah. Yeah. That would. You can kill a tree by putting weight all around the, um, like just all around it. Oh, kind of like the weight, just the weight crushes the roots and maybe that's what they did. They would have known. I mean, they had, but yeah, it took like it took years to clear a field. Yeah. I know that that's sometimes people inadvertently kill their trees, like out front by doing like a nice stone, like encircling thing around it and I'd be like, whoops, killed the tree. Oh, maybe that's what they did. They had a lot of rocks. Yeah. Okay. So this back and forth where Karate was like, take me out to a log and Donna kind of was like, no, I went back and forth. And Karate was pretty pissed off that Tainoa and a and Domagai weren't going to take him anymore. And he thought that Domagai and Tainoa and they were treacherous because he thought he's like, well, I took you to France. Now you're French and these guys are like, the hell, I've been there for nine months. And you guys were, you guys saw all your food was too salty. It was terrible. Didn't like it. So anyway, so Karate just kept pawing on the mistakes that pissed off Donacona. He had landed his ships without permission. And I'm sure he had not forgotten that Karate had put up that cross in Gas Bay last year. He'd stolen his sons. And now the kept the French kept their weapons on them at all times, even though the Sadakonans did not. So this was a major faux pas for obvious reasons. Yeah. Karate was insistent on going to Hachiloga against Donacona's wishes, exacerbated the growing tensions as a last stitch effort to change his mind from going. Donacona sent a handful of shamans with their faces painted black to tell Karate that if he goes, it will mean destruction for him and his men didn't work. So Karate decides he's going to go. Whether he has a guide or not, he's going up the river or down the river. I don't know, if they're going against the flow of water. I think that means upriver. That makes sense, because it flows out to see. Yes. All right. So off he went to Hachiloga and left most of his men behind. They took about, I think he took about 20 and the men he left behind, they kind of got a little paranoid and they built a fort. Oh, okay. Or they got bored, whatever they built a fort. Okay. So they have a fort that's going to be important later. So Karate sails down up, whatever, to Hachiloga with 20 men and is gone for about a week. It's not long. It's not long. I mean, it's Quebec City to Montreal. It's not far when you're on the river. So we sailed down the river passing Taequanda Day and stopped at the village of Atchilasi. And the headband here was pretty happy to see Karate and gave him a little girl. And hopes of securing a trade relationship. So, yeah. I don't know what happened to all these. I hope they ran away. Yeah, hopefully. I hope she, some of them, there's another one that definitely ran away. And then Donacona brought her back. Oh, it was like, oh man. Anyhow, it's gross. Don't like the giving of children as gifts. Yeah. Seems wrong. Sorry. I'm coming down on the, that's a negative for me. It doesn't matter the culture. I think using children to foster trade relationships. I don't like it. Yeah. Controversial take. Yeah. I'll take. So the next day, September 20th, Karate arrived at the Palisaded Village of Hochilaga. What are Palisades? Just like fortification. No, walls? Okay. Yeah. I should have known that. I don't think enough about the Roman Empire. I guess. No, you're not a Roman Empire guy. They built, they would build Palisades all the time. They carry the sticks on their back. I know I think a lot of them are in the Empire. I knew that they carried walls around or like, that's, that was the thing. But yeah. To build their Palisades. Okay. Yeah. They, they, they'd, they'd, they'd just carry like, I don't know, a few big sticks. Yeah. Okay. Because part of their pack that they had to carry. Oh, all right. So here's something quote from the, from Voyages. This, this is Voyage 2. So Voyage 1's already on the age book. Yeah. The first one that, where he took the two boys, went back and now he's back on the second trip. But now we're on Voyage 2. Yeah. Season 2. Season 2. Season 2 episodes. Season 2 is, is, is the much bigger episode. Season 3 gets a little weird. Okay. But I don't know if we're going to get to that today. It gets a little weird. There's new characters involved. It's like, there's new, they try to do, it involves diamonds and gold, but it doesn't. Anyways, I'll get to that. Yeah. Okay. All right. So this village is described in the Voyages as circular and is completely enclosed by wooden Palisades in three tiers like a pyramid. The top one is built crosswise, the middle one perpendicular and the lowest one of strips of wood placed lengthwise. What does that mean? Look, the tallest one is built crosswise, like a circle crosswise. I don't understand. There is a weird drawing. Let me see if I can get the one from Bruce here. It's not Bruce's drawing, but else, but this is, just show it to me and I'll describe it to the audience. But it, well, okay, I'm going to give some framework here. So this is Ramusio's plan of Hochilaga, but it's wrong. Like they have archaeology, right? So that this is not true. Okay. And Bruce in his delightful style says it's practically useless for ethnographers. There's something to that effect. So describe the practically useless. This is just a circle. It's a circle and then the houses in the middle. Yeah, this is a circle with houses in the middle that it shows like the walls, but they don't go all the way around, which seems really dumb. That's ineffective. Yeah. There's like a wall that goes like third of the way around the circle and one on the bottom and then another wall that goes about a fifth of the way around the circle, kind of at the top and the rest is just like wide open, which doesn't. And then about all the houses in the middle. Yeah, houses in the middle. Or very, very, very tightly clustered. Yeah, like absurdly. And they're all like perfectly square. Yeah, it doesn't make. Yeah, no, it's not. That's why that's why Bruce said it's dumb. So it goes on to describe a lookout spots on the top of the palisades of rocks. And whatnot for chucking. Yeah. And then on to the houses below. It's got the chuck and rocks on top. Oh, yeah. And then we did they have a lot of I love us. Yeah, I'm sure they would have. I don't know if they use them. They are rocks. I don't know. That arrows, they wouldn't use that a lot of those anymore. They'd bow and arrows. Yeah, that's true. But they'd be good for chucking rocks. Those slingshots. Yeah, or you didn't use an out of out first. No, yeah. That was a spear thrower. Yeah. Slingshot. Yeah. Was for rock, rock, chucking. Well, an at-lattle is like, is it at a lattle or at-lattle? I always thought it was at lattle. Anyways, it's like an at-lattle. It's ATL, ATL. Yeah. Anyways, whatever they are, like people use them now to throw dog balls, right? And it's like you put tennis ball in it and you chuck it and it increases the lever arm. No, I think it's different. I think those are different because I because a lot of lattle is a spear thrower. Yeah, yeah, it's a spear thrower, but it's the exact same principle is like it's the whole idea is that you increase the lever arm. This is my physics degree. I've shown up the one time I get to show him. Henry's asleep. He doesn't care. He's like, oh, it's so boring, dad. Oh my god. Stop explaining it. Anyways, but the audience that doesn't know what an at-lattle is, it's like think of the dog ball throwers with the throw tennis ball in, but instead of a tennis ball, there's like a little hook thing. You put a spear into it. Yeah, it's like a slot. Yeah, a little slot. All right. Yeah, and then it has the houses and it describes the houses, which like the way they, it was actually fairly complimentary the way they like, you know, kind of like, I don't know if they use the word ingenious, but like cleverly lashed and things like that with the wood in the bark and things like that. Long houses, I think is what they're describing. I'm not, I can't swear to that, but it seems like these are long houses since this is the region where the Huron or the Wendat and the Haudenosaunee, they all had long houses. So why would these people have at least it's a very efficient way to build housing. Yeah, you know, keep the right off. It would have seen them. Yeah. Yeah. Well, also there was like a parallel development, like, like very similar, kind of like thatched cottages and stuff like that that they had in Europe. Right. Okay. So the author, whoever he is, also describes the food. It was a lot of corn, corn, corn, corn. And I find it interesting. They say that it resembles Brazil millet. So Brazil millet is corn down there. And they say they use it, quote, as we use wheat. Yeah. So bread, soups, everything, it's in everything. Yeah. P's and notably, they say they don't put salt in it. They're very, like the amount of time they mention how much they don't eat salt. And they're like, they just bothered them so much. Because there's going to be another reference later. Okay. All right. So this is all in Hochilagas, you remember? Yeah. So there's this weird little section where they're describing wampum and how they make it. So the wampum is the shells that they use in ceremony and are very prized. Yeah. So they say that how they get the wampum and how they make the wampum is that this is what the French are saying that the Hochilagans do, that they make incisions in the ass of an executed man. Okay. And then, and then sink the body in the river or water it didn't say whether it was lake or river, but I assume it's a river and leave it for a week. Okay. And then they bring the body back up and voila, you have wampum in the slips. That's not how they make that. Doesn't make any sense at all. I don't. These guys, they lack any credulity at all. They're like, oh, hell, they make it. Okay. Yeah. So these are the wampum shells. Yeah. The shells that they put little holes in right there. And they're from the ocean. Yeah. They don't get them from, well, they might get them from St. Lawrence. I don't know. They're more from the east coast. Yeah. And there are a trade item that come up from the east coast. If you want to look up wampum, there's some really interesting stuff and there's modern artisans and indigenous creators on the east coast of like America. Okay. That that make beautiful things and they show how they make them now and they kind of talk about the symbolism and the artistry and how it goes. So I recommend looking that up because it's some interesting stuff. I think it was an NPR or PBS or something like that. So there's some really good stuff out there. Nice. Okay. It's just so weird. Oh, and they also say that it's used, they are used to stop nosebleeds and they know this because they tried it. Okay. They shoved shells up their noses to stop nosebleeds. I don't know. From the butt of a dead man that they sunk in the lake for a week or a river for a week. Okay. So they land. They're in Hochilaga and Cartier is about to have a great time because it's very much like I am French and here comes all these people and they think I'm great and I just crowds and women petting him. Not in, I don't know if it was inappropriate or what, I don't know, but they were like petting his arms and kiss. Anyways, they thought he was just the bee's knees. Cred around giving him food and he says that they were throwing fish and things like that in me. I just had this like picture in my head. Flawing. Smacking fish. Well, they kept throwing fish at me. So they threw the fish and they're like, they kept throwing fish at our boats. And anyway, they're just, they're just, these people were thrilled to see him. It was very, it was a very different type of meeting than the Mi'kma and the static konans who were there to be like, hey, you want to trade? These guys are like, hey, are you guys gods? Well, I'm overstating it a little bit, but it was very different. They thought that they were maybe shaman with here at healing powers. So when he met the chief the next day, Cartier was led into the center of the village and was surrounded by people again, so just throngs of folks. Yeah. And then he saw a man being carried in on the shoulder of nine or 10 strong men. And I think that's a bit hyperbole there. That's a lot of men. That's a lot of men. We're carrying one other man. And he was laid down on animal skin, deer skin probably. And Cartier quickly saw that he was paralyzed. And it became clear that the people wanted him to heal the man and others. So Cartier prayed over the various people and made the sign of the cross. And it pleased them. They were all like, oh, yeah, he's doing the thing. And women tried to give him food again. And in the voyages, he notes that he rejected it because it was unsalted. Disgusting. Oh my God. Not even a sauce on it. Sorry. Where's my holidays? Yeah. Okay, so they didn't stick around Hoshalagua for very long, which it was weird. They were there for like the day. Really? Like they're really like they're like, okay, and he's like goes on and on about it forever. Yeah. To Tainoine and Dama Gaya. And he's like, take me there, take me there. And he's like, here, he's like a kid. Can we go? Can we go? Can we go on board? And then he buggers off. So who knows? Maybe it was like kind of weird out by that they weren't there to trade or who knows? Like it's not really clear to me. Or maybe he knew that like he needed to get out of there because like he knows in his head, he's like, I'm not a healer. Right? Like I still paralyzed. It's not working. Yeah. It's a good piece out. Okay. So they returned to Stadakona and the newly fortified French camp and to growing tensions between on both sides. They don't like each other anymore very much. So Tainoine and Dama Gaya might have been like the drivers here because these are young men. You got to remember that these are these probably were teenagers. It could have been like 18. Yeah. You steal an 18 year old. Yeah. Take away from your family and you put them in France with salted food. That's gross. Yeah. And you get lost around all the time. Stinks probably. Yeah. Then you return and you're like, Oh, I'm home. Oh my god. And the other thing Tainoine and Dama Gaya assessed the value of things. And so the when they were giving these little trinkets. Yeah. And people were like super excited. They're like, don't take that. They're playing you. Yeah. And so he told his people they told their people like, no, you're being conned. Yeah. And Cartier took offense to that. Mm hmm. And they're like, well, too bad buddy. So Cartier was becoming more and more convinced that the stardaconas are going to attack any day. And it's winter's coming. Oh, winter is coming. Yeah. Yeah. And they have they they haven't dealt with a Canadian winter. No. Okay. Nope. With a Quebec winter. Quebec City winter. Here comes the snow. It's just going to be spectacularly bad. Yeah. And here comes the scurvy. So it killed 25 of his men. And fun fact, anyone listening of children, when our kids lose a tooth, we tell them that they have scurvy. And that's why they lost their tooth and that they need to eat more fruit and vegetables. Yeah, absolutely. They find it funny. We find it funny. It's just amusing. So it is a typical Canadian winter. And and they were distressed when their wine froze. Oh, I would have sucked. Yeah. So yeah, so the scurvy hit, it was bad. Only like two or three men didn't get scurvy. Yeah. Wow. In the, um, dada conans, all knew how to deal with it, obviously. Well, they was hitting them too. There was an illness going around and the static onans were sick sick too. It may have been a European disease, but it's also clear that some of them had scurvy. For example, maybe this is a pocketful, I don't know. But Cartier saw that Domagaya had what Cartier believed to be scurvy. Yeah. Because he saw that Domagaya's like teeth kind of fallen out and someone had, uh, his knee was swollen up the size of a toddler. Okay. That's really bad. That's really bad. Anyways, and then a week later, he sees Domagaya and he's all better. Okay. So Cartier goes, I'm like, dude, what'd you do? Yeah. And Domagaya was like, yeah, we just took the medicine. So it cure was aneda, which is white cedar fronds. Mm hmm. They made the tea and Domagaya immediately had it brought over and they did the thing. The men did not want to take it. Okay, it's gross. Well, or they're just like, they're like, they're trying to poison us. Uh, yeah. Or whatever. Who knows. But some were brave enough to try it and then they just immediately started improving. Yeah. And they're like, okay, I guess we're going to do this. So the tensions were festering all winter and Taino and A seem to be whisper, whispering conspiratorially against Cartier, or at least that's what Cartier's perception was. And it became more and more concerned that attack was coming. So and then Donacona and Taino and others went hunting in February for about, and they were gone about two months. Okay. And he said they were going hunting, but Cartier thought, oh, they're gathering forces. So he was all worried. So what Donacona eventually returned. So this sort of in April-ish. Yeah. And Donacona was taking ale for a while, or maybe Cartier thought he was faking. So he was in his house. So they're all kind of separate, right? Because they're doing their own thing. They're not on great terms. Yeah. So Cartier believed Taino and A was conspiring. So he sent one of his men who was, who everybody liked. I guess, I guess is a cool guy. His name was Charles Guayo. Okay. So they sent everybody's favorite guy to investigate what was going on at Donacona's house. And Guayo got there, and they saw that there was all these strangers, basically. Oh, okay. But there's just this hunting party. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. But Cartier took this information and decided on something he'd been thinking about for a while. And he was going to capture Donacona and take him back to France. Oh, okay. And so he wanted, and one of the reasons he wanted to capture Donacona and take him back to France is because he's been obsessed with this idea of Soganay, this land of Soganay, this kingdom of Soganay, that's full of jewels and rubies and gold or whatever. At least that's what we thought. Yeah. And Donacona, he fed into this totally. So I'm gonna paraphrase, basically, Donacona is like, Oh my God. Yeah, I've been there. It's great. There are people there. They have no anus. They don't have they don't have a butthole at all. It's so cool. They don't even poop. And they don't eat anything and they just drink and pee. Okay. And there's another place down the way. Everyone has one like. And Cartier believed it. And there is no doubt in my mind that Donacona was absolutely 100% taken the piss. Oh, 100%. Wow. That's amazing. Yep. No, but just yeah, it's not all those guys don't have a distance. They just they don't want anything just they think in the voyages, it said they just drink and make water with their penis. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, that's amazing. Yep. Good stuff. Do you imagine talking about that after he left? Just like straight face straight face. Yeah, totally. Oh, yeah. That's good stuff. Or his brothers because Donacona's brother is like it. Brothers right. Yeah. Oh, yeah. We've been there too. It's amazing. It's a weird place, but kind of fun. Okay. We're so fast. They could just hop. So Cartier had this plan to take Donacona. And so he went about setting this trap. So Donacona had his own schemes though. They was trying to use Cartier for so Tinoine let Cartier know through Guio that there was a man named Agona who may have been working against Donacona to try and take kind of the chief to him. Okay. So there would have been factions. It wouldn't have been kind of game of throwing style where there was like one man because that's not how power works. Mm hmm. You need your people. Yeah. Like you can't just, it's not like a kingship. Yeah. Yeah. So Donacona wanted Cartier to kidnap Agona and take him with him to France or take him, get rid of him. But Cartier was going to play against this. He's like, well, I'm not going to take Agona because I think Agona is going to be better. Maybe Agona was more amenable to the French because the like the Donacona and Tinoine and Don Magaya were like, oh my god, these guys are so jassels. Yeah. We don't want to work with them. Or he's just trying to develop the trade relationship more. So he's more agreeable and more like sycophantic possibly. Maybe. So Cartier tried to lure both Donacona and Agona to a ship, but they weren't having any of it. Nobody trusted. Yeah, of course. The end of like the tatakonas did not trust Cartier. I mean, they're right. So this takes place over like a little while. I'm going to shorten it. So after a couple of days of no luck luring them in, Cartier got a rumor going that they had abandoned one of their ships and they were letting the people from the village of Cittadon take all the nails off the ship. Oh. So this drew Tinoine and Don Magaya to beat with Cartier at his fort. And Cartier told him that he just wanted to take a couple children to France. Okay. That's it. And but he's going to take Agona as a favor and maybe maroon him on the way home. Okay. So it's fine. I just want a couple kids. Yeah. So this part gets confusing, but Tinoine promised to bring Donacona and others to the fort. Because they do still want the stuff. They still want the trade relationship. They still want to do something here. And to add a little flare to the story, Cartier had a huge cross erected by the river and a trap was set. So he had his he had talked to his men. They're like, we're going to grab them when they get better. So Tinoine saw the trap and sent all the women away. So like into the woods, right? Because they're all around, right? Yeah. And it's not really clear to me how they kept saying they lured him in. I don't know how. Yeah. They kept just talking about luring him in. I'm like, I mean, what are they? What are you doing? Like they don't really say anyways. So Don Magaya and the two other men probably brothers, they kind of get them into a place where they can grab them and Tinoine sees that. Oh, no, they've gone. They're going to take him. So Tinoine tries to get them get to them doesn't get to them in time. It's all very dramatic. And because Tinoine tries to get to them, he gets captured to everyone's captured. So it's Don Magaya, Donacona, Tinoine, the uncles, whatever, maybe some others, they're captured and they're taken to the ships. And everyone on the shore is like losing it. Yeah. And very upset. And then the next day, calm down a little bit and then they go out, they go to the ships ships and try and like see what's going on and like give them things. But basically it's a done deal. They're going to take Donacona, Tinoine, Don Magaya, uncles, some children. I don't. Well, a lot of them. There's 10. Yeah. They're going to take 10. Okay. But Tinoine and Don Magaya had been brought back the next year, right? So they're like, how's it going to be that bad? Yeah. Anyways, so women brought food over. So because they didn't want the salty crap that the friends were going to feed them and brought shell collars, swamp them collars to encourage the return of Donacona. Yeah. So just kind of all this enticements. And yeah. So they brought them back to France. Okay. So Donacona made it to France and even met with a king. Yeah. And he kept up his great stories about jewels and so on and added. And one leg and hop poppin. No, this one's about men with wings who flew around with like bats. Sweet. You've got it. Do they sleep upside down hanging cups? No, just creative. And there was some ambassador or someone was like, no, that doesn't sound right. And the king was like, no, no, no, his story kept his stories straight all the time. So must be true. Okay. All right, Francis. You got played. Yeah. Whatever. But yeah, what we, what the story is, is that Donacona lived about four years or five years and was baptized. Whether he was a true believer, I don't know. Yeah. But yeah, so he lived for a while. And but I don't know. But because you're saying he lived for a while, I assume that he died in France. He died in France after five years. He never went back. None of them ever went back. Oh, wow. You know how they died? Was it just sickness? Yeah, probably. I mean, who knows how many, like, it's not even clear how many made it the crossing. Yeah, that's true. I mean, this isn't like middle passage stuff, right? It's not like, it's not like the slave ships or anything. They just want a ship. I mean, people die in the ships. Like, I'm sure, I'm sure one of the French guys died. Like, they just died. But yeah, all but one of the girl, like, by the time Cartier goes back five years later. All but one are dead. Okay. One of the girls. And, uh, yeah. Does she go back to go back or no? She stays in France. Doesn't even get to come back. No, it doesn't even get to come back because he, Cartier didn't want her telling everybody. That everybody's dead. Yeah. Because he said, no, no, they're like, they're fine. They're having a great time. They're living it up. Yeah. He lied. So that's all I got so far. There's one more voyage. The crazy town jumping the shark voyage. Is that going to be part two? Yeah. It'll be a short one though. That's okay. Then after that, it's going to be where they go. The static cones you mean? And the hochilagans. By the time Champlain's there, they're like... It's like a ghost town? Wow. Okay. Yeah, they're gone. No sign of them. Phew. And no one's taken over there like... Because that's great land. Those are great places. Quebec City, Montreal. No one lived there. I'm looking forward to hearing some stories. So we'll go next time. We'll finish off with a little short episode, I guess, of voyage three. Season three with a new characters of rubber val. And car change is kind of bailing. Bailing? It's like I'm done about here. So yeah, that's all I got. He's fast asleep. He's fast asleep. He's done. He's done. He pieced out is when you were talking about adult adults. Yeah. This is a history podcast. Not a science podcast. I don't care about that. So people, like, subscribe, whatever you're supposed to say. And comment and rate, particularly on Apple podcasts, or Spotify, whatever. Yes, please. That would be awesome. So thank you. Listen next time.