Champlain's Quebec Pt.2: Allies and Enemies

(upbeat music) Hi and welcome back to Maple History. If you would like to support the show beyond being a listener, which already makes you one of my favorite people, you can sign up for the Patreon or follow me on social media at Maple HistoryPod. This really helps keep the show going. We have a lot of work to do to show the world how great Canadian history truly is. So I have Simon back again today for the episode. - Hello. - We're gonna be finishing off the early days of Champlain's Quebec. We're more talking about Champlain's allyship building, less the building of the settlement today. We talked a little bit about the settlement last time and then we kinda panned out and then eventually we're gonna go back in to the focus of Quebec, but not today. - All right. - He's barely there. - So we'll be talking about how the Wendat Nation used their kinship network and trade networks to ensure the French allied with them. - Well, I mean, they did, so they could get that back. - Yeah. (laughs) - Yeah, iron pots. - Yeah. - Thank you. - Yes. - I thought we were just gonna do a really quick recap in case it's been a while since you listened to part one. Or maybe you skipped it because you saw the torture warning and you're like, "I'm out, I can't do it." - I'm glad we're not doing any more torture today. That's probably good. - Yeah, there's some mention of it, but not the details. - Yeah, not the description. The description made me feel a little queasy if I'm being honest. - Yeah, it was gross. I'm gonna limit that because I just, the next time we will talk about it is with Jean de Brebeuf. And if you know anything about him, you know that he's a martyr. - Yeah. - And then you might have an idea - Of why? - How that came to be. - Yes. But we'll pump the brakes there a little bit. So, for the recap, in 1608, Champlain founded What Will Become the City of Quebec. It was a terrible winter that year and there were only eight survivors of the 28 or 29 settlers. Two of those survivors were Champlain and everyone's favorite early Canadian settler, a young at Chambrulay. In 1609, Champlain was convinced to join the Inu-Wendat in Algonquin to join them on a raid down to Mohawk territory where there was a small but momentous battle. So, this is the start of Champlain's commitment of the French to ally with the windat against the Haudenosaunee. So, the French use of guns in this battle is a turning point in warfare in Canada. From this point on, guns will have a growing importance in the lives of the indigenous people as the European world bleeds into the North American one. - Were they actually in Canada? Were they down in New York State? - They were in New York State that time. - Okay, so they like traveled down. - Yeah. - Okay. - It was Tychondoroga. I know these names only because growing up in Berry, we got the Western New York television stations. - Oh yeah. (laughs) - So, I know these names, vaguely. So, all the while Champlain was thinking that he was hot shit for being the hero of the battle and in control of the trade and allyship situation with the windat in the Inu. The windat leaders were working with the Algonquin and Inu to organize how they would incorporate the French into the kinship network for trade. So, that's basically where we left off with the last episode. So, we'll continue on from there. - All right. - Champlain heads back to France to report to the king, work on solidifying financial support for the fledgling colony, but was back in, I guess we can call it New France by the spring of 1610. It's more boring court stuff and chambers of commerce kind of stuff. (laughs) - Yeah, good to your politics thing, laws and whatever. - Yeah, like if you're really interested in financial meeting minutes, then I'm sure you can find a podcast for. (laughs) So, the trade relationship with the Inu was far from solid. There were still ships coming in to try and weasel their way in to get the furs from the indigenous people. So, you like the Basque or just other traders, right? Just independent ones, okay? The Basque were the main group that were making big promises to the Inu that they were gonna help them with their wars and just really trying to finagle their way into getting the goods, saying whatever they needed to. Bruce Trigger relates in his book, The Children of Atchnazik, sorry if it's wrong, but I knew consider these false promises. And to quote, Bruce, I said, ridiculed these traders as women who only wanted to make war on their beavers. (laughs) - Was that a euphemism back then? - No, no, it was actually they're like, you just wanna fight beavers. - Oh, okay. - You're only here to kill beavers. (laughs) - No, sorry for that. - Our mind went the wrong place. - Of course it did, it doesn't surprise me at all. I knew that was coming. (laughs) - Also, they would have been dealing with the Basque for a very long time, right? So, I imagine they probably were used to getting like kind of promised things and then not receiving them. - They were there just to get the goods. They were not building a settlement. So they were not trying in what the Inu, like they're not kind of becoming family with them. Whereas, say, like they might have, including Champlain in kind of a concept of brotherhood. - Yeah, yeah, well he fought a battle with them. - I mean, that's- - It's like your comrades and arms, right? Like it's a pretty classic thing. - Yeah. - You have a bond. - So, with Champlain's return to Quebec, the Inu and their allies invited Champlain to join them on a raid on the Haudenosaunee again. So Champlain agreed to go and was probably hoping that his cooperation in this raid would help move along his plan to explore further into the region and all the way up to James Bay. So the Inu and the Algonquin had been jerking him around about this and kept finding excuses not to guide him there. They're like, yeah, yeah, no, we'll take you. Or it's not right now, we can't go right now. There's like reasons. That's what they just kept saying. And he's like, they'd make promises. They're like, yeah, sure, you can come with us. - Yeah. - We'll take you to there. - Would this have been all related to like, back when Cartier was there, they promised him. And then the reason that they didn't want him to go was because they didn't want him to trade with other people. - Yeah. - Okay. - Yeah. - They're similar. - Yeah, except they trusted Champlain more than Cartier. - Oh yeah. - For good reason. So Champlain was there to trade and explore and didn't waste any time on his return to set on that mission. So they're like, fine, we'll work on that later. - I'm going north. So he sent, they're called shell-ups, shell-ups. Full of goods, so like ships to trade up river with the Inu and followed a couple of days later. So he joined them and learned of a rather large reading party led by Oshastakwyn and Irukhet, who were headed down to the Rishuloo River to attack the Haudenosaunee. So Champlain had already agreed to help with attacks. So off he went with quite a few more French this time. So there were four Frenchmen with him, and there were two other ships that were going to join later. Like not like, not big ships, but like the little ships. The shell-ups, the shell-ups. - We got to look up a picture of one of those. - They're like, they're like little sailboats. - Okay. - That's it there. That can navigate rivers and stuff like that. And they're like 20 man boats, probably max. I think from what I'm read, you only need a handful of men to run them. - Okay. - Is that what the word is for shipping, crewing? - Probably crew them. - Yes, that sounds great. - Yeah. Anyway, so they had those, there was a lot more French there. There wasn't just like 20 guys in Quebec. There's, we're in the, I want to say, like 100 or so. - Okay. - Plus the ships that would come and go. - And winter hasn't come yet, so they're not, yeah. - Yeah, and Gravy DuPont was there. - Okay. - Like there was people there in charge of Quebec. There was stuff going on, building happening, gardening, probably same as last time. Hopefully fewer deaths. - Yeah, hopefully getting ready for winter. - Yeah. So the Mohawk built a fort and set themselves up pretty well. This is on the Richelieu River. I looked, whatever, they're in western New York. The innu arrived before some of the others, including Champlain, and attacked the fort prematurely, taking some significant losses on this really pissed Champlain off since he considered himself a leader for their battle plan, 'cause all these plans would be discussed. They have a plan. They're not obeying him. The concept of sieging isn't the same. So anyways, they did eventually attack, and they had their plan ready, and both sides unleashed a flurry of arrows with the French firing their muskets, and Champlain was tagged in the neck, an arrow by an arrow leaving a nasty gash on his ear, and an arrow stuck in his neck. - Oh wow. - But he yanked out. - Oh my, okay. - I can't remember if I think it was Fisher who noted that Champlain admired the craftsmanship of the arrow, I guess he might have heard that. Oh wow, isn't that nice? I guess adrenaline does things. - Yeah. - So things started to get a little worrisome in this battle, but that's when those other Frenchmen arrived in the other ships, when they were starting to run low. And together with their allies, the French stormed the fort and defeated the Mohawk there. And there were only 15 Mohawk survivors, and they were all taken captive, and you know what happened next. So the battles at Lake Richelieu and Lake Champlain were serious setbacks for the Mohawk. They lost about 250 warriors in those attacks, which is a huge number, considering there were only 5,000 Mohawk. So for the whole Haudenosaunee Confederacy, it's like 20, 25,000, but that's all broken down into the other five nations. Not always, not equally, it's not like it's divided. Some are bigger than others. - That's 5% of the entire group by 250, yeah. - Yeah, you lost some of your best, your strongest men. Yeah, so that's a blow. - Yeah, that's a serious blow. - These losses definitely played a role in the regional power balance for the next decade. And I'm sure it influenced when and if the Mohawk were gonna attack, if the French were gonna be there. - Yeah, no, that makes sense. - 'Cause that's two battles. So they are not stupid. They're like, "Oh, okay, now we know." But this battle did go a long way to encourage the bonds between the French and the indigenous allies. Even though Oshasta Gwynne and Iraquette arrived after the battle, they're still included in the idea, like they didn't have to be there to be part of being like, "Oh yeah, yeah, you guys." And that scar on his neck, when he met people, when he would be traveling around and met people, they would see the scar and they would touch it and remember the battle. I think it was Fisher, used the term that. It was like a talisman, but I think that's a bit much. It's just like, it's a mark of honor. - Yeah, and it's like a physical memory. - And he was pretty brave. I mean, he took an arrow in the neck, pulled it out and kept fighting. There's nothing to sneeze at there. There's no cowardice on his part ever. - It must have been a grazing wound, but still, that's pretty amazing. - But it's a market, it's a matter of inches, centimeters, sorry. - Millimeters. - Yes, in the neck, right? It would have been a bugger, but he healed fine. So now they have this new bonding experience. Champlain really needed to get some people in good with the Elgonquin or Wendat, if his plans to explore and establish all the trade networks in the region were going to work. This is where, at Champerele, comes in. So Champlain was able to persuade Erocat to take Brûlée and wanted to take one of his men with him to France as an exchange. So not all the Elgonquin were on board with this, because they worried that a Brûlée died, while in their care that Champlain would feel compelled to carry out blood revenge on them. Champlain made it clear that not doing the exchange would be the problem. And Brûlée was there, and he really wanted to go. - Okay. - He was... - It's like I'm up for an adventure, let's do this. - Yeah, yeah, and he'd been there for two years. - Yeah. - He didn't go back to France those times, he stayed. So he's well aware of what's going on in the environment. - Could he speak the language yet or not? - Not yet. - Yeah, okay. - So Erocat and Wendat Hedman decided that a young man, the Hedman's brother, that was about the same age as Brûlée, who's 18, his name was Sauvignon, would go with him. He was the brother of the Wendat Hedman, and he was named Trigorati. Anyways, Brûlée didn't actually end up living with Erocat, he lived with O'Shasta Gwynn instead. So it isn't clear on exactly how that decision came about, but I think it is because Erocat spent so much time at O'Shasta Gwynn's village, and the Wendat had the numbers and control of the area that Erocat would need to travel through to get to Champlain, that Erocat let O'Shasta Gwynn take Brûlée. Champlain spent most of the summer in Quebec, and then went back to France in August, bringing Sauvignon with him. Sauvignon seemed to have a pretty decent time in France and was treated well. So Les Garbo, the lawyer/secretary/author/poet guy that had gone to Acadia, was there and met him and wrote about him after seeing him in Paris. And he noted that Sauvignon would make fun of the men in Paris for arguing with each other without coming to blows, 'cause that's what women do. (laughing) - Just punch him, it'll be fine. (laughing) - What, actually arguing is not done among the men. You do not interrupt, and you do not argue. - Okay, oh yeah, 'cause if you argue, like it's coming to blows, so you don't argue. - You don't argue, and you let the person say their piece. - Yes. - And you're not given back and forth. That is just not done. - But the women do that? - I guess. - I guess, yeah, okay. - So he was also pretty disgusted with how the French treat their children since the Wendat never beat their children. He warned his family when he went back. He's like, "Don't let them go, "they're gonna be beaten or killed there. "Don't let little children go." So Champlain spent the winter shoring up financial support for the colony and getting married. - Oh, all right. - Who, a 12-year-old. - Oh, jeez. (laughing) - Of course. - So in December 1610, Samuel de Champlain married the 12-year-old, Elen Boule. And I know it's a popular belief that people got married very young back then, like in medieval times and up to the Renaissance. And that's not true. Some children were married as part of a dynastic plan, whatever you want to deal. - But even then, this was not-- - And financial reasons. - Even then, this was not normal. - It was not normal. No, the vast majority of people were married at the ages, we would consider fairly reasonable. Women were married in their late teens, early 20s. Men, they're late 20s, typically, 'cause they had to be financially established in order to set up a household. Clearly, this marriage was some sort of alliance between Champlain and the Boule family. Champlain knew her brother from New France. - Yeah, and you're saying Boule, not Boule. - Boule. - Yeah, Boule. It's not Etienne Boule. - No, no. - This is-- - B-O-L-L-E with the accent. - Okay. - I forget the name of that. Correct accent. - Is it accent a goo? - Maybe. - Maybe. I'm not sure I'm terrible at that. - She was so young, that is part of the marriage contract. She would continue living with her parents until she was 14. - Okay. - Still gross. - Still bad. - Anyhow, Champlain and Savignon headed back to New France in 1611, leaving young Helen well enough alone for now. Trigger relates an interesting little anecdote about Savignon's return and the importance of the life of the people and the indigenous people care. So if you had someone with you, you were responsible for them. So Savignon, and then an Algonquin man and a Frenchman named Louis, went hunting while they were waiting to head out to meet Irakat and Oshastagwin, when they were gonna go down the river, up river, whatever you call it. So they're on the river and their canoe overturned in rough water. Only Savignon survived, and he was terrified that the French would kill him because one of their men died in the excursion. So this deep-seeded societal belief that you are responsible for the loss of life and then there will be the price to pay. Now, of course, Savignon, he was treated fine. They didn't blame him. Was an accident. The French did not think it was his fault. But Louis died. Anyway, Champlain is still trying to get up north and explore the areas and make new trading alliances with the other nations that he had heard of, like the neutrals and the Algonquins. Just kept giving him the runaround. - They didn't want them to develop your relationships with anybody else. Like, we wanna be the middleman, I get it. - Yeah, 'cause the personal relationship was very important to them. 'Cause once you had a personal relationship, you were family. So the bonds like to break them was a big deal. Would they consider it breaking the bonds if he developed a relationship with somebody else? - Possibly. - Oh, okay. 'Cause there were potentially enemies. - Yeah. - Oh, okay. - So Champlain and Savignon met up with Brulei and the Wendat. Brulei had a great time and was dressed as a Wendat and now spoke the Wendat language and Algonquin. - Wow, okay. - Yeah, so bravo to him. - In a year. - In a year. - Wow. - Yeah. - Good job. - Yeah, it's really, he's really good. And there were a lot of traders that arrived in 1611 from France and Champlain had to assure the Wendat they were all on his side. They said that we were all under the same king. Don't worry, these French guys are with me. So the Wendat were making a strong play to get him to make a formal alliance with them. There were a lot of meetings and ceremonial councils where Champlain would be invited solo as a mark of respect and just part of their nagling, I guess. And it was a busy time with lots of people coming and going and skins to trade. And among them was Tessouette, the chief of the kitschus burini. Champlain and him were old friends from back in 1603 when they had met at Tatosac for the first time. - I haven't heard of that name before. - I might have mentioned Tessouette, but maybe not the tribe that he was chief of. Anyways, so they'd met back in 1603 at Tatosac. He talked with Champlain and told him that he could take him or one of his people north. So Champlain decided to send a young man named Nicola Davino. It was late summer, so Champlain went back to France and his child bride. And for the next few years, Champlain was back and forth to France. So he stayed in France in 1612, but was back in 1613 with Gravy DuPont and Nicola Davino. So Vino had shown up in Paris in 1612 with news that he had been to Hudson Bay with the Nipissing. - Really? He just went on his own. - He told Champlain that he'd been with the Algonquin and they met with the Nipissing who guided Vino up to Hudson Bay. - Oh, so he... - Well, I'll get to hold your horses. - Oh, okay, all right. - So Vino said he joined them to go trade with the Cree and that the Cree had a message for Champlain, that they had seen Europeans up at the bay and even taken one of them in when all the other Europeans died in the harsh winter. So the Cree had passed this person to the Nipissing, who wanted to give him to Champlain. - Okay. - Yeah. This was quite the story. Champlain was skeptical, but then news was coming in that Henry Hudson had made it to Hudson Bay and died. He went in like 1609, I wanna say. Maybe he went 1610. - Yeah. - And his son might have survived for a while. So there is some like, well, oh, maybe that was John Hudson. Maybe he got taken in by the Cree to save him. - Okay. - 'Cause they mutinied and left him for dead. - For those of you that don't know, Hudson's Bay is an absurdly cold area that's polar bear country. It is north of, both northern Ontario and northern Quebec. - Yeah, and Vino was telling Champlain, yeah, it's actually really close. It only took 17 days to get there. - Mm. (laughing) - Oh my God, I don't think so. - I don't think he made it to Hudson's Bay. (laughing) - So this put Champlain on a mission to get to the Kitchesperini and his old friend Tessuette, who had joined him back in 1603, his old friend. So Champlain was keen to stay in goods dead with the Algonquin because they controlled the Ottawa River. So Tessuette was part of that. He had partial control of that. Like he didn't have the whole river. - It's a big river. - He was up Morris and Ireland. I looked it up. It's like La Luet. Let's name something different now. - Okay. - But it's past Ottawa. It's far northwest of Ottawa. - Okay. - So yeah, it was a major route for them taking their first down to Quebec and Tatasak. So he was gonna have to play a diplomatic game to get the Kitchesperini to bring him to the Nipissing 'cause they didn't really get along well, like they weren't enemies. - Yeah. - But they were keeping them at bay. It was not like a close relationship, say with Irakhette's nation and they're going to hone on. That's the Wendat nation that Ashostigwen was with. I think they're the coordination. So they weren't full on enemies, like pretty much everyone else was with the Haudenosaunee, but they weren't friends. So like I said, there was some truth to the story about the Europeans and Hudson Bay 'cause Henry Hudson and everything, but it's very likely that that poor kid died. I used like 19. So there was no white man to be given to Champlain. Anyways, so once they got back in Quebec, Champlain got Vino and another interpreter and a few other men together to make the journey up their Ottawa river to Morrison Island. - Okay. - So Vino had said that the journey to Hudson Bay from the St. Lawrence only took 17 days, like I said, but it didn't take long for Champlain to seriously doubt that story. - Yeah. - 'Cause it was eight days and they still hadn't gone to Morrison Island. - Yeah, no. - Morrison Island is about 150 kilometers northwest of Ottawa. - Okay. - And also to give perspective on the distance, Ottawa is about 1,000 kilometers from the James Bay region, which is like the mini bay before the Hudson Bay. - Yeah. (laughing) - That's far. - Yeah, and the country gets harsher. - Oh yeah. Well, there's nothing there except some animals. But yeah, it's pretty rough. So they finally get there and they were well greeted by Tessawat and the kitchen springy people. They're happy to see him. They had a nice long chat and Champlain explained that he really wanted to go see the nipissing. And Tessawat kept trying to talk him out of it, but Champlain insisted. And so Tessawat eventually agreed, but later that night after they'd gone to bed, the other interpreter Champlain brought Thomas Godfrey, woke Champlain to tell him that he heard them talking and that they had no plans to let this happen. So it's clear that Tessawat wanted to maintain control of Champlain's movements and who he could talk to. So Tessawat had been telling Champlain that the nipissing were evil sorcerers and things like that. And after Thomas told him that he was being played, Champlain went storming back to Tessawat, told them that the nipissing can't possibly be that bad 'cause Vino had spent time with them and he's fine. - Mm-hmm. - And then the kitchen springy and Tessawat, they were pissed off. Not because Champlain had been calling them liars about the nipissing, but because they knew that Vino had not been with the nipissing at all. So the poor Vino must have been shitting a brick during this whole exchange. - Well, he was there. - He was there, Vino was with them. - Oh, wow, yeah, okay. And the kitchen springy had their hospitality insulted and offered to kill Vino for Champlain because they were like, he'd never been there. He's a little liar. Champlain declined having him killed, but had Vino tell him what the hell is going on. - Yeah. - Vino admitted that he hadn't been to Hudson Bay and that he'd heard this whole story secondhand. - It's just tellin' tales. - Tellin' tales. - He was trying to make himself seem more important so he'd get more opportunities in the area. - You're playing a dangerous game there. - He sure is. - Yeah. So Thomas told Champlain that the kitchen springy had sent a canoe to go meet with the nipissing, which made Champlain come to understand that they got along a lot better than they thought that they were letting on, but that this was just another way that they were keeping Champlain under his control. Champlain soon left and brought Vino back to Quebec and he let him go and Vino said that he was gonna try and find his way to Hudson Bay for him. - Okay. - But the kitchen springy had warned them that if they ever saw him in their territory again, they would kill him on site and Champlain had told them that he didn't care. - Okay. - If you get that. So poor bugger, we don't know what happened to him. - Just disappeared. - He just disappeared. Maybe he found his way on a basket ship. I don't know, I can dream 'cause I kind of feel bad for him. 'Cause he didn't really do anything that terrible, in my opinion. - Yeah. - It wasn't that bad. - He was just playin' a dumb game. - Yeah, he was just tellin' a story and he insulted the kitchen springy by lying about where he'd been and things like that, but he didn't marry a 12 year old, you know, like. - As far as I know, he was all in the up and up with people he had relationships with. So that was crappy for him. But it kind of gave Champlain a better idea of how he was being played, but also that he is not in control of that trade situation. - Yeah. - There's so much more going on, but his arrogance didn't really allow him to believe that. He still always thought he was in control. - Yeah. - Yes, he has the weaponry, but he doesn't have the manpower. - No. - And he doesn't know who is on whose side all the time. These relationships are literally ancient, hundreds and hundreds of years. And the nuance, he just doesn't get it. Not yet, he's only had interpreters in amongst the nations for two years, three years. That's not very long. - No. - And this is only a handful of them. Brule was one. There's a couple others. I forget their names. They'll come up later. They're gonna be more important later. So Porvi knows off the historical record. We can imagine he had good things or died quickly. I don't know. So Champlain was back in France for 1614 and came back the next year in 1615. And this time he brought the record out with him. That's the religious order. - Okay. - I can't remember how many brought. - So this is like priests and like, okay. - Yeah, a religious order. There was all sorts of negotiation of which religious order was gonna come. - Okay. - And the recollect got the deal, basically, this time. And this is the start of the major efforts to convert indigenous population. It was game on from here on out. - They were Catholic? - Yeah. - Okay. - Oh yeah. There weren't really. - I always forget which is like. - There weren't really religious orders for the Protestants. - Oh yeah, that's true. - Yet, that kinda came later. But we're gonna cover the religious situation in other episodes 'cause they're gonna get the whole thing. It is too complicated to add on here when I was at 3,000 words and I was like, no. We had a lot to cover. So once Champlain arrived, he left Quebec pretty quickly and traveled to meet the Wendat, Neil Gonquin. Over the years, they had set up a trading station farther up the St. Lawrence, which allowed them to develop closer relationships with the Wendat and began pushing the innu out of the middleman position. Because the innu were the ones who lived in and around Tatasak, right? So they were the ones who got there first and it was kind of always kind of a finders keepers kind of thing of whoever discovered a trade route, whoever developed, found a hunting area like it's kind of theirs. - Okay. - They're in control of it. So Champlain was kind of the innu's. - For a while anyway? - Yeah. - 'Til they got pushed out. - Yeah, but not in like a coup or anything like that. Like they're still allies with the Wendat. Like they're still friends. They just kind of got shuffled to the side. Who knows if there's great animosity about that? We don't know, maybe a little bit. So over the summer of 1615, the Wendat guided Champlain on a tour of their territory where he went to many, if not all of the main villages. He met all the head men and Champlain seemed to believe that this was a sort of merry tour without purpose when in fact the Wendat were doing this in a very purposeful way. By having Champlain as a guest at Beach Village and meeting each head men, they were making a treaty of friendship where the French would provide military aid to the Wendat and they went and would trade with the French exclusively. - Okay, but he didn't know. - Not really. He didn't understand that these meetings had great value that they are now friends. And if you are friends, you are bound to each other. Not necessarily like always like, if there's like a blood feud of, you know, someone got killed and I'm gonna go to war that you have to come. It's not like NATO where one nation's attacked and so they all have to go. It's not as simple as that. Like they could, they didn't have to go. So right from the beginning of that summer, Champlain and Gravy had agreed that the French would go join the Wendat in a large attack on a Haudenosaunee settlement. And after Champlain's grand tour of Wendaki, a.k.a. Heronia, the plan finally came together of who they were gonna go attack. So they chose what is most like to have been an Oneida settlement. Things are murky about exactly where the settlement was. Western New York. - You said pretty big distances. - They are. - Do you think about it? - Yeah, they are. - Like where, it's where I grew up. A cure. - Barry. - Yeah, barry, you know, veil, penitang, that area. - A real, yeah. - A real, yeah. - One of the big villages near Arelia. - Yeah, all the way down to Western New York. That's far. - Well, you can get it really far on canoe, on rivers, as they are like a highway. But this was August that they decided where they're gonna go and they kind of got there around tour. - Yeah, it would take a long time. I mean, when you're going by river, it's a very winding pathway, right? - And lots of rapids and things like that. Champlain joined the more party and off they went down the St. Lawrence and passed Lake Ontario and into New York State. I'm using modern terms just because geography. - Yeah. - Anyways, it isn't very clear where the village was. Nor was it very clear whose village it was. So Fisher, that's the guy who wrote Champlain's Dream, says that it was an on and dog village, but Bruce Trigger concludes that it was an onida village. - Okay. - So I'm on Team Bruce. - Yeah. - 'Cause he's my guy. I just think he's a better scholar. I'm a shade on Fisher, but I mean, Trigger is like top tier. So there was a lot of tension between the two sides in this expedition. So two sides, meaning the French and the indigenous, because of their differences of opinion on how things should be done. - Okay. - So when they were close to the destination, Champlain and Iroquette's party came across a Haudenosaunee fishing group, basically a family. - Yeah. - Fishing and they captured them. And Iroquette's group began the ritual torture of a woman. So this infuriated Champlain and he flipped on Iroquette and this caused issues in the group. And one of the warriors was so angered by being called out by Champlain. They killed one of the, we children in protest. It's not off to a great start. Like the tensions were rising with the differences. You can see from the first time, they're like, oh no, everything's fine. And the newness of the relationship kind of went well, but now Champlain is forming really kind of strong opinions about how they treat prisoners, how their society is structured. 'Cause he's a Frenchman in the 17th century. So they got to where they were gonna attack by October and they made their own fortifications. So this was a fortified settlement. The Oneida one, like a village, a fortified village like Palisades and the works. So Champlain had wanted to keep it a surprise that they were there, but the Wendat and Algonquin were anxious to capture prisoners. So some warriors went out to try and capture some Oneida near the fortified village and nearly got captured themselves. So Champlain and his men had to intervene to rescue them, spoiling Champlain's surprise plans. And Champlain went on a rant about how he's a French soldier and he knows more about war. And basically they should all do, as he says. - You hear Henry scratching in the background. - He's fine, he's a good boy. So I can only imagine how well that went over with him yelling at them all in French. - Yeah. (laughs) - And the interpreters, including Brule was there, doing their best to translate, but also not-- - Yeah, not fully translated. - Tarda kind of an internal fight, but probably most of them were just looking at Champlain with side eye as he goes off. 'Cause they would, you know, they'd just let him talk, right? They're not gonna interrupt him and argue. - Yeah, that's true. (laughs) - So, but for the indigenous perspective, they were completely willing to let Champlain voices in their opinion, just like any other warrior. - Okay. - You can say your piece, there is equality there. Yes, there are clear leaders, but each person is allowed to share their thoughts. But as Trigger puts it, I quote, "The concepts of command and obedience "on which Champlain was to rely so heavily "in the days that followed were not ones "that had meaning for the Huron or Algonquin." - Okay. - Not good. What they went at wanted to happen was they were gonna harass the fortification and then some warriors would come out and they'd fight and then they'd kill some and take prisoners and then they'd go back and then they'd do it all again. - Okay, then just wanted to like this attrition. - Yeah. And so they attacked on and off for about a week and Champlain wanted them to set fire to the fortification so that they could break through their defenses. Sometimes the when dad and Algonquin, they'd set like a little fire and Champlain would get super pissy and I mean like that's a pathetic little fire. The Haudenosaunee, they would not, it would pour water on it and go out. - Yeah. - And it's just like he's like, "What are you guys doing? "This is terrible." (laughing) Anyways, but the when dad were like, yeah, this is going well, this is great. Everything's going great. - Okay. - In one of the exchanges of fire, Champlain and O'Shasta Gwen were injured, Champlain took an arrow in the knee and the when dad and Algonquin, they were waiting to see if they were their ally, the Sisku Hanaq were gonna come and help them, but they never came. So they just decided to head home. - Oh, okay. - And Champlain believed that this campaign had been a failure. - Yeah. - They was like, "We lost." Because they hadn't destroyed the fort and the enemy, but the indigenous group were like, "This is great success." Yes, yeah, yes. 'Cause they had done what they come to accomplish. They got blood revenge by killing a bunch of the Oneida. They captured some prisoners as part of like the morning war ritual. They could take back and do terrible things too or adopt them into the communities. So these were pretty typical goals and with how many Oneida warriors were killed and the prisoners taken, it was a satisfactory... - Raid? - Yeah, like that was normal. - Yeah. - But from your reaction, it's a failure in a European view. - You spent like two months... - Getting there. - And then you just had like a little fight in the left. They successfully defended. - Yes. - So the Europeans would be siege of fortification and destroy it. - Yeah. - They would destroy the fortification or they would have the people would surrender. That didn't happen, so. But that's not warfare in that part of North America. - Okay. - And Champlain had a truly miserable time on the way back because of his wounded knee. They had to leave their canoes 'cause they start walking in. They had to walk back to their canoes. So they bundled him in a crouching position like all the other wounded and was carried in a basket on the back of one of the warriors. - Holy cow. - Yeah. (laughing) - A warrior was carrying like a single warrior. Just full on carrying another full grown man. Wow. - Yeah, I know. - And you're like getting jostled around. - And your wounded knee is bent in a basket. It was agonizing. - It would be, it would be terrible. - Yeah, so he's not having a great time here. And things go from bad to worse for Champlain. So he's carried an agony back to the canoes and he'd been promised that they would take him back to Quebec. But they reneged on this for several reasons. So it was pretty dangerous for them to travel up that way to Quebec because the Haudenosaunee warriors could attack. And they wanted to keep a close eye on Champlain since things were still tenuous about whether he would seek other sources for furs including from the Haudenosaunee. - Yeah, yeah. I gotta worry about it. So up until recently Oshastigwen had been Champlain's host anytime he's with the Wendat. But because of the importance of this relationship to the Arende Haudenos, I'm terrible at that word. Arende Haudenosaunee. And to the wider Wendat Confederacy, Oshastigwen passed this honor to his head man at Aranta. So instead of Oshastigwen's family being in control of the trade relationship, the whole nation had that honor 'cause it was too big of a responsibility. - Yeah. - It's like the province being in control of trade. You can't do, you have your individual on but like the main trade relationship is with the federal system. - Yeah, it has to be. - So, and then even from then, Aranta would have gifted this relationship to the larger oldest Wendat nation. The, you can use the English translation, the bear nation. - Okay. - That's another hard word. But anyway, Adirondha was still the contact here. And Adirondha kept very close tabs on Champlain and how to stay in his home over winter. And it turns out that Irkhat was there as well. So they're kind of all together negotiating. So Irkhat is kind of a main contact and he's with the Algonquin. - Okay. - His main nation is the on a touch run on. So Champlain did leave in January and travel around with two other northern nations with one of the Recollette priests, Father Le Coron, but he was back at a headway. - I guess his knee was better? - Yeah, healed, 'cause he was a couple months, right? October to January and he is tough. - Yeah. - There's no denying physical fortitude of this man. So Champlain had a chance to go with the nipissing up to James Bay, but the Algonquins and likely the Wendat talked them out of it. They talked the nipissing out of bringing Champlain up there, 'cause again, they are not letting him go. I'm gonna double check, but I don't think he ever got there. - Why would you need to? - Well, 'cause there's other nations, 'cause the fur, you have the Ojibwe, you have the Cree, you have all these other places, because the beaver are gonna get hunted out like they're gonna over trap them. So you gotta get other networks, right? - Yeah, true, other sources. - 'Cause that's like Hudson Bay, that's gonna be where the Hudson's Bay Company is, for a reason, but that's in a while. We'll get to that eventually. So when winter came to an end, Champlain returned the favor of hospitality by inviting Atoranta. This comes day in Quebec. So he's the first Wendat to come to Quebec. And during the visit, Atoranta asked Champlain to build a settlement on Montreal Island as a place of trade and defense against the Haudenosaunee. This'll be a while, that doesn't happen for a long time, but the seeds are planted there. So Champlain agreed, and before Atoranta left, Champlain gave him presents. Presents are very, very important to the culture. So this visit was interpreted by Atoranta. The French were now a principal ally to the Wendat. In the same way that they knew where. So for Champlain, it had been an educational time where he learned and judged harshly at times the culture of the Wendat. He hated the way they treated prisoners and considered it barbaric. And their lack of a strong hierarchical political and military system made them less than in his eyes. So the stage is now set for the next 30 odd years. The French will be on the side of the Wendat in the coming Beaver Wars. And we do have some great episodes coming up. So we will be looking at the relationships and other enemies that the Haudenosaunee had, what the Dutch have been up to, the Jesuits, they're coming, what's going on in Acadia, and the first time that the English capture Quebec. And at Chambourle's story. - Okay. - So yeah, that's what's going on next. So yeah, Champlain thought he was hot shit. Not that he's not getting played, you know what I mean? They're not using him in like a sneaky way, but they're just like, no, this is my territory. - Yeah. - I know these people, you are new. So you have great stuff where we like you. - But you're not the one in control. - Yeah. - We are. - So that's what's going on there. So yeah, in another couple of weeks, we will have the Haudenosaunee kind of catch up episode. - Cool. All right. - All right. - It's been fun. - All right, thanks. I hope you enjoyed Henry Scratch himself during his call or battle. (upbeat music)